Would the Neutral Zone have better without the 20th century characters - Page 3

horatio83 · October 2 2012, 08:18 PM

So what? I could name companies that lasted for a week. The average lifespan of a company matters for an investor, not the extremes of the distribution.
By the way, good luck getting your deposits back when a bank goes bankrupt.

BillJ · October 2 2012, 08:39 PM

horatio83 wrote:

So what? I could name companies that lasted for a week. The average lifespan of a company matters for an investor, not the extremes of the distribution.
By the way, good luck getting your deposits back when a bank goes bankrupt.

FDIC...

Jonas Grumby · October 2 2012, 09:33 PM

^ Horatio83, you just blew yourself out of the water. It is now apparent that you have not even a rudimentary understanding of financial matters.

BillJ · October 2 2012, 09:57 PM

Jonas Grumby wrote:

^ Horatio83, you just blew yourself out of the water. It is now apparent that you have not even a rudimentary understanding of financial matters.

Well, he's from Europe I believe. Maybe they don't insure deposits over there?

Mutai Sho-Rin · October 2 2012, 10:01 PM

Let's ease up on this debate before somebody gets pissed off.

BillJ · October 2 2012, 10:04 PM

Mutai Sho-Rin wrote:

Let's ease up on this debate before somebody gets pissed off.

No worries on my end.

Jonas Grumby · October 2 2012, 10:10 PM

^ Nor mine. I'm cool.

horatio83 · October 2 2012, 10:34 PM

Jonas Grumby wrote:

^ Horatio83, you just blew yourself out of the water. It is now apparent that you have not even a rudimentary understanding of financial matters.

Says the guy who thinks that companies last for centuries.

BillJ · October 2 2012, 10:51 PM

horatio83 wrote:

Jonas Grumby wrote:

^ Horatio83, you just blew yourself out of the water. It is now apparent that you have not even a rudimentary understanding of financial matters.

Says the guy who thinks that companies last for centuries.

The last company I worked for was started in 1858 and shows no signs of dissolving any time soon.

Jonas Grumby · October 3 2012, 01:53 AM

horatio83 wrote:

Says the guy who thinks that companies last for centuries.

I could point out, yet again, how multiple posters here have already shown you some that have. Or that a little research of your own would show you that there are many more than just the ones already specifically cited. Or that where you really go wrong is in your apparent belief that a seasoned financier would entrust the safety of his holdings to any one institution, or that when a financial institution goes "out of business," its assets simply disappear. But since we've been cautioned not to piss anyone off, I'll just let it drop.

horatio83 · October 3 2012, 02:40 AM

RALPH: Yes. I have provided for myself. I have a substantial portfolio. It's critical that I check on it. Let the bank know that I am alive and well.

PICARD: Your lawyer has been dead for centuries.
RALPH: Yes, of course I know that, but he was a full partner in a very important firm. Rest assured, that firm is still operating.

We don't merely talk about deposits or money market products, the guy also held shares and bonds and believes that they they are still worth something just like he believes that the company of his lawyer still exists.
The average lifespan of small companies is probably a few years whereas the average lifespan of publicly owned and traded companies is probably a few decades. Any stocks or bonds you hold become worthless once the company ceases to exist.

About belief, you are the one who actually believes that the guy is a "seasoned financier" (nobody who ever had something remotely do to with finance would naively believe that all people in this business are competent, not to mention that using such a phrase after the financial crisis makes you sound even more naive). I don't believe anything, I judge him based on his actions and words. They reveal that he can either not accept the reality or that he is incompetent. Sorry to shutter your lovely little world but guess what, people with some power or money are actually quite often utterly incompetent.

Timo · October 3 2012, 07:34 AM

I don't get it. Why would the lifespan of a company matter to the health of a portfolio? A portfolio is a dynamic thing you actively manage (well, you outsource it), and survives despite companies collapsing or people dying. Indeed, it thrives on companies collapsing and people dying in the general case.

As for competence, it's not a requirement in any field of life as such. Successful faking is the key, and Offenhouse seemed competent enough in that.

Timo Saloniemi

horatio83 · October 3 2012, 01:00 PM

If somebody else manages it for you and it is well diversified you couldn't care less. But if you manage it yourself and then take a nap for three centuries, well, just look at the stocks which a random stock market index contained in 1900 and which of these companies still exist after just one century.
Add the natural political changes which you can expect after three centuries and it becomes clear that any rational guy would not expect that he still owns anything. Rationality didn't matter though, the guy believed religiously in capital lasting forever because his self-esteem, the whole purpose of his life was connected to his job and he couldn't as easily start from scratch as the musician.

Timo · October 3 2012, 03:43 PM

Why would we assume Offenhouse managed his own portfolio, or more exactly, failed to arrange for its management after his death? He specifically says he needs to contact a bank on the issue, and also that he needs to contact a lawyer.

I just can't see the merit in your argument. Wealth that is well over five hundred years old still definitely exists today, having survived and thrived through various disasters. Heck, wealth from land may be thousands of years old and still producing nicely for the rightful heirs of the ancient owners. Wealth managed dynamically has no obvious mode of ceasing to exist, other than the caretaker ceasing to care.

Offenhouse might well have been right about his wealth remaining for all we know - it just doesn't make him opulent any more, as life in luxury has become trivially cheap. Or his caretakers may have ceased to care when they realized the wealth would do nobody any good any more. Or then there indeed was an unpredictable major disaster at some point that robbed Offenhouse of his wealth. But all of these things would be unexpected and unlikely in the mere three centuries he was out of the circulation, considering how stable things have been in the past few thousand years. Or ever since the 1500s, anyway.

What about the starship Enterprise interiors should give him the hint that his world has collapsed? From what he sees, the United States of America is still going strong and now controls the universe, albeit under funny names and dressing in fashion one would expect of the French. There's nothing really exotic there to suggest otherwise.

Timo Saloniemi

tomalak301 · October 3 2012, 05:52 PM

Yes it would have. It would have been nice to actually get a full fledged meet the Romulans story, instead of having two stories interfere with each other. I almost feel like we really don't get to meet the Romulans properly until Contagion, and then they are used extremely well in The Enemy and The Defector.

October 2 2012, 08:18 PM	#31
horatio83 Commodore	Re: Would the Neutral Zone have better without the 20th century charac So what? I could name companies that lasted for a week. The average lifespan of a company matters for an investor, not the extremes of the distribution. By the way, good luck getting your deposits back when a bank goes bankrupt. __________________ The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger

October 2 2012, 09:33 PM	#33
Jonas Grumby Vice Admiral Location: Somewhere in the South Pacific	Re: Would the Neutral Zone have better without the 20th century charac ^ Horatio83, you just blew yourself out of the water. It is now apparent that you have not even a rudimentary understanding of financial matters. __________________ "There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats." - Albert Schweitzer

October 2 2012, 10:01 PM	#35
Mutai Sho-Rin Moderator Location: Orange, CA USA	Re: Would the Neutral Zone have better without the 20th century charac Let's ease up on this debate before somebody gets pissed off. __________________ Into the sands of blood comes the Sho-Rin, master of the Mutai. Babylon 5 - TKO

October 2 2012, 10:10 PM	#37
Jonas Grumby Vice Admiral Location: Somewhere in the South Pacific	Re: Would the Neutral Zone have better without the 20th century charac ^ Nor mine. I'm cool. __________________ "There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats." - Albert Schweitzer

October 3 2012, 02:40 AM	#41
horatio83 Commodore	Re: Would the Neutral Zone have better without the 20th century charac RALPH: Yes. I have provided for myself. I have a substantial portfolio. It's critical that I check on it. Let the bank know that I am alive and well. PICARD: Your lawyer has been dead for centuries. RALPH: Yes, of course I know that, but he was a full partner in a very important firm. Rest assured, that firm is still operating. We don't merely talk about deposits or money market products, the guy also held shares and bonds and believes that they they are still worth something just like he believes that the company of his lawyer still exists. The average lifespan of small companies is probably a few years whereas the average lifespan of publicly owned and traded companies is probably a few decades. Any stocks or bonds you hold become worthless once the company ceases to exist. About belief, you are the one who actually believes that the guy is a "seasoned financier" (nobody who ever had something remotely do to with finance would naively believe that all people in this business are competent, not to mention that using such a phrase after the financial crisis makes you sound even more naive). I don't believe anything, I judge him based on his actions and words. They reveal that he can either not accept the reality or that he is incompetent. Sorry to shutter your lovely little world but guess what, people with some power or money are actually quite often utterly incompetent. __________________ The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger

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October 3 2012, 07:34 AM	#42
Timo Admiral	Re: Would the Neutral Zone have better without the 20th century charac I don't get it. Why would the lifespan of a company matter to the health of a portfolio? A portfolio is a dynamic thing you actively manage (well, you outsource it), and survives despite companies collapsing or people dying. Indeed, it thrives on companies collapsing and people dying in the general case. As for competence, it's not a requirement in any field of life as such. Successful faking is the key, and Offenhouse seemed competent enough in that. Timo Saloniemi

October 3 2012, 01:00 PM	#43
horatio83 Commodore	Re: Would the Neutral Zone have better without the 20th century charac If somebody else manages it for you and it is well diversified you couldn't care less. But if you manage it yourself and then take a nap for three centuries, well, just look at the stocks which a random stock market index contained in 1900 and which of these companies still exist after just one century. Add the natural political changes which you can expect after three centuries and it becomes clear that any rational guy would not expect that he still owns anything. Rationality didn't matter though, the guy believed religiously in capital lasting forever because his self-esteem, the whole purpose of his life was connected to his job and he couldn't as easily start from scratch as the musician. __________________ The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger

October 3 2012, 03:43 PM	#44
Timo Admiral	Re: Would the Neutral Zone have better without the 20th century charac Why would we assume Offenhouse managed his own portfolio, or more exactly, failed to arrange for its management after his death? He specifically says he needs to contact a bank on the issue, and also that he needs to contact a lawyer. I just can't see the merit in your argument. Wealth that is well over five hundred years old still definitely exists today, having survived and thrived through various disasters. Heck, wealth from land may be thousands of years old and still producing nicely for the rightful heirs of the ancient owners. Wealth managed dynamically has no obvious mode of ceasing to exist, other than the caretaker ceasing to care. Offenhouse might well have been right about his wealth remaining for all we know - it just doesn't make him opulent any more, as life in luxury has become trivially cheap. Or his caretakers may have ceased to care when they realized the wealth would do nobody any good any more. Or then there indeed was an unpredictable major disaster at some point that robbed Offenhouse of his wealth. But all of these things would be unexpected and unlikely in the mere three centuries he was out of the circulation, considering how stable things have been in the past few thousand years. Or ever since the 1500s, anyway. What about the starship Enterprise interiors should give him the hint that his world has collapsed? From what he sees, the United States of America is still going strong and now controls the universe, albeit under funny names and dressing in fashion one would expect of the French. There's nothing really exotic there to suggest otherwise. Timo Saloniemi

October 3 2012, 05:52 PM	#45
tomalak301 Admiral Location: Bay Area, CA	Re: Would the Neutral Zone have better without the 20th century charac Yes it would have. It would have been nice to actually get a full fledged meet the Romulans story, instead of having two stories interfere with each other. I almost feel like we really don't get to meet the Romulans properly until Contagion, and then they are used extremely well in The Enemy and The Defector. __________________ Twitter