RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 137,799
Posts: 5,325,805
Members: 24,548
Currently online: 526
Newest member: wrestlefreak36

TrekToday headlines

Seven of Nine Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

Pegg The Prankster
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

More Trek Stars Join Unbelievable!!!!!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

Star Trek #35 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

New ThinkGeek Trek Apparel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Star Trek Movie Prop Auction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Drexler: NX Engineering Room Construction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

New Trek Home Fashions
By: T'Bonz on Jul 4

Star Trek Pop-Ups Book Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 3

Cho: More On Selfie
By: T'Bonz on Jul 3


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > TV & Media

TV & Media Non-Trek television, movies, books, music, etc.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 2 2012, 12:05 PM   #301
stj
Rear Admiral
 
stj's Avatar
 
Location: the real world
Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
Ah, this is solely about trashing Elementary as an imaginary vindication of Sherlock.
Listen: I'm glad you like the show. Many people agree with you. Many people don't.

It's an interesting circumstance, however, that there are two modern day Sherlock Holmes currently on the airwaves, so comparisons are inevitable.

Personally, Sherlock is a much better show. Not only are the characters more sharply crafted, so are the stories. I think there's a boldness that is lacking in Elementary. I think Sherlock uses the tools of a visual medium in a much more compelling fashion.

But, do carry on. Enjoy the show. But don't mistake your opinion for fact or that you are being persecuted because people disagree with your opinion.
If you actually read my posts you would see I'm reserving judgment, but find the Liu's Watson's tensions with Miller's Sherlock interesting, possibly inspired by The Zero Effect.

Comparisons should be inevitable. I found the CBS version of Watson more believable than the BBC version, which I could not accept as both an alleged adult and a friend of a self-proclaimed sociopath. Personally, I think the notion that Sherlock's sensationalism is bold, or sharp, or well-crafted fails to see how close Sherlock is to unintentional camp. But we agree that Sherlock is more extreme, you and others just choose adjectives that sound more favorable to Sherlock. (I choose adjectives that are more accurate of course.)

The problem with these peculiar posts is that Sherlock being more extreme does not make Elementary "bland" or "generic" or whatever other buzzword you people choose to throw out. That stuff would be nonsense if it hasn't become obvious that the intent is to foreclose any positions other than Sherlock=good and Elementary=bad. This aim is so important for whatever childish reason that posters keep writing the most peculiar things.

For instance, Miller's Holmes spent far more time in conflict with Watson than in making quips at the expense of the cops. Or indeed making quips at all. That should show people that Elementary is not a generic copy of Monk, House or The Mentalist. How very tiresome then to insist on saying such nonsense.

Final aside on Pete and Myka: Squabbling brother and sister is never the effect achieved. What you get is middle school boy and girl who don't know how to relate sexually. Myka as closet lesbian? Maybe. Four years of unresolved sexual tension is nothing for TV land and means nothing though. I think the episode about the agents in love was not just a standalone story but a parallel story.
__________________
The people of this country need regime change here, not abroad.

Last edited by stj; October 2 2012 at 05:59 PM.
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2012, 04:38 PM   #302
Nerroth
Fleet Captain
 
Nerroth's Avatar
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

Has it been stated whether or not any episodes of Elementary will be based on, or inspired by, older Holmes stories (the way Sherlock has been); or is this series going to have all of its scripts drawn up from whole cloth?
__________________
You think you know a story, but you only know how it ends.
To get to the heart of the story, you have to go back to the beginning.

----------------------
The Star Fleet Universe: ST: TOS' other legacy.
Nerroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2012, 04:59 PM   #303
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

I'd expect it to be original stories -- although I did wonder if the serial killer's fondness for redheads was an oblique nod to "The Adventure of the Red-Headed League."
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2012, 06:40 PM   #304
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

stj wrote: View Post
Final aside on Pete and Myka: Squabbling brother and sister is never the effect achieved. What you get is middle school boy and girl who don't know how to relate sexually. Myka as closet lesbian? Maybe. Four years of unresolved sexual tension is nothing for TV land .
But I'm not picking up on any sexual tension there. Even when a show keeps the couple apart, there's usually lots of will-they-or-won't-they teasing in the air. But on WH13 there's none of the usual longing looks or jealousy over potential rivals you get when TV shows are playing that game. And, unless I'm forgetting, they haven't even done the obligatory "going undercover as honeymooners" trope that shows with unresolved sexual tension almost always go for . . . .

And, for what it's worth, what I got straight from the producers' mouths was that I wasn't to imply any sexual tension between Pete and Myka.
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2012, 07:10 PM   #305
Enterprise is Great
Rear Admiral
 
Enterprise is Great's Avatar
 
Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

Nerroth wrote: View Post
Has it been stated whether or not any episodes of Elementary will be based on, or inspired by, older Holmes stories (the way Sherlock has been); or is this series going to have all of its scripts drawn up from whole cloth?
Since Sherlock is doing that I'm guessing that Elementary is going to avoid it. I think that they want to keep the two versions as different as they can.
__________________
JJverse Star Trek...ROCKED on May 17, 2013 and beyond!
Enterprise is Great is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2012, 07:40 PM   #306
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
Final aside on Pete and Myka: Squabbling brother and sister is never the effect achieved. What you get is middle school boy and girl who don't know how to relate sexually. Myka as closet lesbian? Maybe. Four years of unresolved sexual tension is nothing for TV land .
But I'm not picking up on any sexual tension there. Even when a show keeps the couple apart, there's usually lots of will-they-or-won't-they teasing in the air. But on WH13 there's none of the usual longing looks or jealousy over potential rivals you get when TV shows are playing that game. And, unless I'm forgetting, they haven't even done the obligatory "going undercover as honeymooners" trope that shows with unresolved sexual tension almost always go for . . . .
There was one episode where they woke up naked in bed together and didn't remember what had led to it, but it turned out that the reason they did that was because they knew they would forget something urgent that they had to remember, and since they both knew they would absolutely never end up in bed together under any circumstances, finding themselves in that situation would compel them to investigate and discover what really happened. So that story depended on the definitive absence of any romantic interest between them. I wonder if the whole point of that was to tweak those fans who mistakenly perceive sexual tension between them.

But then, there are always fans who imagine sexual tension where absolutely none is intended to exist. That's how the slash-fanfiction genre came into being in the first place. Although these days you're more likely to see intentional slash subtext, like Mkya and H.G. -- or Sherlock and John in Sherlock, at least where everyone around them is concerned. So it's become more of a general "shipping" thing. For any two characters in a fictional franchise (or across different franchises), you'll find someone who imagines them as lovers, no matter how insanely wrong a pairing it is.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2012, 07:49 PM   #307
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

Apparently Mulan/Sleeping Beauty shipping is already a going concern--after only one episode of ONCE UPON A TIME!
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2012, 08:55 PM   #308
Professor Zoom
Vice Admiral
 
Professor Zoom's Avatar
 
Location: Idealistic
Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

stj wrote: View Post

If you actually read my posts you would see I'm reserving judgment,
Dude, that is such a tired argument on the internet. I read your posts. I disagree with your posts. Keep condescending away, I don't really care.
__________________
Batman does not eat nachos.
Professor Zoom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2012, 12:00 AM   #309
stj
Rear Admiral
 
stj's Avatar
 
Location: the real world
Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

Oh, I don't disagree about what the Warehouse 18 producers said. I'm just not into believing them over what's on screen. And "work husband" the "only one [Myka's] ever going to have," just doesn't scream squabbling brother and sister to me. Also,if they're squabbling brother and sister, the naked in bed scene should have been more matter of fact. Unless they themselves are supposed to think of themselves as brother and sister, in which case the semi-incestuousness of it all should been much more uncomfortable.

Pete and Myka live in the same home. They aren't going to have romantic relationships with other characters, even offstage ones, that will cause anything in their lives to change. They won't move into their own homes. They'll still spend their free time with each other. They're a couple. Pete gets to have a roving eye but the double standard means Myka doesn't except for lesbian chic. It's Claudia and Jinks who are doing the brother/sister thing. It's true that we'll no more see Pete and Myka doing the horizontal mambo than we'll see Jinks and anyone. Warehouse 13 isn't that kind of show.

Finally, does anyone commenting on Elementary have anything to say about it's approach to Watson, which is the lynchpin of the whole adaptation?
__________________
The people of this country need regime change here, not abroad.
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2012, 01:11 AM   #310
Professor Zoom
Vice Admiral
 
Professor Zoom's Avatar
 
Location: Idealistic
Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

stj wrote: View Post
Finally, does anyone commenting on Elementary have anything to say about it's approach to Watson, which is the lynchpin of the whole adaptation?
I thought Liu's Watson was basically a blank slate. I don't think she's a very good actor, and the pilot didn't do anything to convince me otherwise.

As far as the background for the character... she lost a patient and so... she quit her job...? Meh. It would be great if there was something much more to the story. Like SHE spiraled out and did drugs for a while... or shot herself or something... Right now, she's a character for Holmes to talk AT.
__________________
Batman does not eat nachos.
Professor Zoom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2012, 02:06 AM   #311
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

I think there's a lot of potential in this version of Watson, since she's a damaged character with some interesting textures that could be built on. I like the idea of Holmes recognizing a kindred spirit in her and trying to bring it out. It's not just Holmes lecturing Watson about his deductive methods, but actually nurturing the same gift in her, helping her discover and embrace that part of herself. It does feel a lot like the Doctor recruiting a new companion, admittedly, but in the context of Holmes and Watson it's an interesting twist on the dynamic.

It's true, though, that Liu's performance doesn't impress me yet. I haven't seen enough of her work to have a firm opinion of her overall abilities as an actress, but so far she's not bringing much to the part beyond those stunning eyes.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2012, 03:45 AM   #312
stj
Rear Admiral
 
stj's Avatar
 
Location: the real world
Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
Finally, does anyone commenting on Elementary have anything to say about it's approach to Watson, which is the lynchpin of the whole adaptation?
I thought Liu's Watson was basically a blank slate. I don't think she's a very good actor, and the pilot didn't do anything to convince me otherwise.

As far as the background for the character... she lost a patient and so... she quit her job...? Meh. It would be great if there was something much more to the story. Like SHE spiraled out and did drugs for a while... or shot herself or something... Right now, she's a character for Holmes to talk AT.
^^^The way I thought of it was that it was not yet clear that Watson was a character we could admire, and therefore one whose endorsement of the outre Holmes would matter. If you actively dislike Liu's performance, the whole thing is rather disjointed, with no dramatic flow at all.
I'm a little reluctant yet to assume that the problem is Liu can't deliver the script's Watson. They would want to hold back, pace the reveals, I think. The revelation that she likes opera enough to ditch Holmes and go alone seems a little stingy, though. The disquieting thought is that Liu's Watson is being set up as a sexless person. In which case, this Watson is not the normal human perspective on genius and crime at all.
__________________
The people of this country need regime change here, not abroad.
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2012, 03:57 AM   #313
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

^Why would someone be "sexless" just because she has more going on in her life than sex, or doesn't immediately start flirting with the male lead? That's a huge leap.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2012, 04:13 AM   #314
Gov Kodos
Vice Admiral
 
Gov Kodos's Avatar
 
Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston
Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

Why is sex or sexless relevant to Watson and Holmes's dynamic at all? If the characters were the same gender this question wouldn't come up, nor would I expect the creators to give a sexual dynamic to the male versions. Though, that would be a far more interesting take than the humorous one used in Sherlock. To say that sexuality has to be an issue now because we have a female and male lead pair is very sexist. I enjoyed their upending the idea at the outset with the 'love at first sight' routine, which took a strait shot at just such expectations when there is a male/female lead in a show.
__________________
We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star!' Endora on witches in Bewitched

Last edited by Gov Kodos; October 3 2012 at 05:10 AM.
Gov Kodos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2012, 04:24 AM   #315
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: Lucy Liu cast as Watson in CBS' Sherlock Holmes show

Just noticed your Halloween name. I watched Twins of Evil last weekend.
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:48 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.