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Old October 2 2012, 03:12 AM   #31
sidious618
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Re: Can Capitalism be replaced ?

Capitalism can and will be replaced. No one form of economy has lasted forever and it'd be foolish to think that capitalism will.
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Old October 2 2012, 04:54 AM   #32
E-DUB
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Re: Can Capitalism be replaced ?

I know there have been threads before about "Trekonomics" and I'm not looking to go down that route again, but if anybody ever invents something like the replicator a lot of traditional economic thinking will be quickly defenestrated.

Don't think it's not possible, 3D printing technology is getting A: better and B: cheaper every day.
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Old October 2 2012, 05:07 AM   #33
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Re: Can Capitalism be replaced ?

I'd rather it isn't, it's given me such a feast over the years.
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Old October 2 2012, 05:11 AM   #34
{ Emilia }
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Re: Can Capitalism be replaced ?

Vulture Capitalist wrote: View Post
I'd rather it isn't, it's given me such a feast over the years.
You, me, both.
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Old October 2 2012, 05:16 AM   #35
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Re: Can Capitalism be replaced ?

Is there anybody here with science background (my background is engineering), who can explain if it is possible for matter to be converted from one state to another state technologically like those replicated items in star trek.

Matter differ from each other in terms of density and arrangement of the atoms. If such a matter conversion technology can come into play in the future, the economic system will be changed forever. Matter conversion technology in the hands of government will lead to the decline of private corporate enterprise. Will that be a good thing or bad thing? Will that lead to a new form of socialism based on technology? I am person of the left so i am kinda for it.
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Old October 2 2012, 07:28 AM   #36
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Can Capitalism be replaced ?

Demonstrating the possibility of the replicator will either coincide with, or else probably immediately lead to, its invention.

So, the short answer is that, no, no one can explain if it is possible. If someone could, then I'd get ready for there to be a lot of replicators around in your lifetime.
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Old October 2 2012, 09:45 AM   #37
horatio83
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Re: Can Capitalism be replaced ?

E-DUB wrote: View Post
I know there have been threads before about "Trekonomics" and I'm not looking to go down that route again, but if anybody ever invents something like the replicator a lot of traditional economic thinking will be quickly defenestrated.

Don't think it's not possible, 3D printing technology is getting A: better and B: cheaper every day.
This doesn't imply that you suddenly live in a post-scarcity world. Replicators are still costly to produce and energy is not available at zero cost either. Out on the frontier some starship might be engaged in a conflict on dilithium.
Sisko once mentioned transporter rations so what has changed in Trek is not merely technology but also the attitude of people. You need acceptance for something like rations, you need people to stop always wanting more. In econ-speak we see in Trek a change of technology as well as preferences.
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Old October 3 2012, 02:42 AM   #38
E-DUB
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Re: Can Capitalism be replaced ?

I think, and I could be wrong here, that Sisko's mention of "transporter rations" may have been a reference to his time at the academy and that such "rationing" may simply have been applicable to cadets.
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Old October 3 2012, 02:57 AM   #39
horatio83
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Re: Can Capitalism be replaced ?

True but if it is rationed for cadets it is most likely also rationed for ordinary citizens. Hard to imagine that cadets are worse off than civilians.
The other options are that you have to pay for it or that you have to rationalize your demand for a transport in some bureaucracy and in my opinion they to do not sound very Trek-ish.
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Old October 3 2012, 03:04 AM   #40
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Re: Can Capitalism be replaced ?

horatio83 wrote: View Post
True but if it is rationed for cadets it is most likely also rationed for ordinary citizens. Hard to imagine that cadets are worse off than civilians.
The other options are that you have to pay for it or that you have to rationalize your demand for a transport in some bureaucracy and in my opinion they to do not sound very Trek-ish.
The UFP alway struck me as a European Union/NATO type of grouping. The individual planets in UFP do have a lot of autonomy just like the states in the EU. Maybe the UFP helps with technology, planetary defense and gives assistance in emergencies but the planets are free to run their own affairs. Perhaps the UFP constitution help guarantee each planet's autonomy.
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Old October 3 2012, 03:19 AM   #41
horatio83
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Re: Can Capitalism be replaced ?

I totally agree.
About your comparisons, NATO is a military alliance whereas the EU is a half-assed economic-political alliance that is currently crumbling under its half-assed-ness. So why not compare it with the most decently functioning federation in our world, the USA?
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Old October 4 2012, 07:21 AM   #42
gturner
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Re: Can Capitalism be replaced ?

The Mystery Man wrote: View Post
Capitalism can and will be replaced. No one form of economy has lasted forever and it'd be foolish to think that capitalism will.
But capitalism isn't one form of economy, it's all forms of economy. It was never mentioned in the Constitution, and it didn't have to be. All we had to guarantee is that people were free to go about their affairs and could elect a government that would pass and enforce a system of rules that punished cheating.

Other than cheating (and later strictures against exploitation, child labor, etc) everything is allowed as long as it meets certain levels of transparency and responsibility.

Everyone is free to start a company, merge it, sell it, sell shares in it, etc. The company can pay all the employees equally or pay them according to their output or their character level in WoW, make them all co-owners or make their pets owners and have the employees work for their pets, or come up with almost any conceivable pay scheme that we haven't already banned for blatant abuses and unfairness. You can even not have the workers as employees, and instead treat them as contractors, or even treat them as customers who show up, build things, and then sell the things back to the company - or the company's competitors. You can choose the company officers in a poker game, or rotate them weekly, or declare that there will be no officers and everyone is equal. All those things are allowed and are part of capitalism.

Basically, all niches, structures, and methods are wide open,
and may the best ones win. It's like a zen koan. How do you design a better form and structure to defeat a system that takes all forms and structures? You can't. You can only limit yourself to one of the already allowed forms. All competitors to capitalism are just strict limitations on the forms it allows so that its many more optimal forms are disallowed, like rigging a footrace so that only nobles named Jonathan or Charles wearing purple T-shirts and sponsored by Tom Evans Chrysler Buick can win.

You may imagine other forms that you think should win, and you're perfectly free to try them and show the world that they do win. If they do, you'll get to host management and business seminars for the rest of your life and capitalists will write books singing your praises. What we don't allow you to do is just ban everybody else from competing so you can claim a cheap plastic trophy.

Merchantilism, bullionism, feudalism, fascism, and communism are only distinct from capitalism because they only allowed a tiny fraction of the possible business structures in capitalism to operate. Some capitalist companies focus on exports and balance of trade, some on gold, some on sharecropping, some on single-sourcing to the government, some on total vertical integration (but we disallow the mass murder of employees, etc). Under capitalism those are niches, some of them unviable, some of them lucrative but narrow. As I said, it's a zen koan, and they could not outdo the structure that is all structures.
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