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Old September 30 2012, 02:19 AM   #166
46379.1
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Re: Ewww.. SGU let's have some freaking protocol

No other Stargate show would had this discussion... it's over one year since it ended and three years since it started and still people all over the Internet argues over the plot and the characters.
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Old September 30 2012, 02:38 AM   #167
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Re: Ewww.. SGU let's have some freaking protocol

Arguing doesn't mean greatness, LOL

Just ask the ENT forum.
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Old September 30 2012, 04:16 AM   #168
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Re: Ewww.. SGU let's have some freaking protocol

46379.1 wrote: View Post
No other Stargate show would had this discussion... it's over one year since it ended and three years since it started and still people all over the Internet argues over the plot and the characters.
I was thinking the same thing, it's been that way ever the since the series started, the other two series didn't generate anywhere close to the discussions that Universe has.
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Old September 30 2012, 07:40 PM   #169
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Re: Ewww.. SGU let's have some freaking protocol

DWF wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
NKemp3 wrote: View Post
That being said does anyone want to try to argue that the first two seasons of TNG were quality TV or that DS9 wasn't painfully trying to find its way very often during its first season or that Babylon 5 was not boring many people for the vast majority of its initial season? Anyone? Perhaps people give those shows a pass because they were so hungry for Trek or because of the more episodic nature of the first two shows or because each show had a slew of cool-looking, English-speaking aliens. Or maybe because of nostalgia we forget about the growing pains of those particular classic series.
The problem here is that you assume that TV hasn't changed in the 2-3 DECADES since those two shows started. You can't meander around for a season or 2 anymore and expect to survive on television any more.
Lost was able to meander around for six seasons and still didn't make any sense in the end.
It made perfect sense if you were paying attention.
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Old October 1 2012, 02:31 PM   #170
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Re: Ewww.. SGU let's have some freaking protocol

No it never.
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Old October 1 2012, 04:19 PM   #171
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Re: Ewww.. SGU let's have some freaking protocol

Harvey wrote: View Post
There's no reason they couldn't have come up with more story material to properly fill twenty hours of television. All the padding and delay to the serial narrative was simply lazy writing.
Coming up with story material is one thing. Obviously, they came up with 20 hours' worth of story.

The hard part is turning those ideas into scripts. I've seen a pretty clear pattern where shows tend to be a lot better when they have short seasons (in the 13 episode range), and tend to take a drop in quality if they have to fill out ~20 episodes instead.

The most acclaimed shows on TV these days tend to have short seasons. I don't think that is a coincidence.
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Old October 1 2012, 04:22 PM   #172
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Re: Ewww.. SGU let's have some freaking protocol

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
There's no reason they couldn't have come up with more story material to properly fill twenty hours of television. All the padding and delay to the serial narrative was simply lazy writing.
Coming up with story material is one thing. Obviously, they came up with 20 hours' worth of story.

The hard part is turning those ideas into scripts. I've seen a pretty clear pattern where shows tend to be a lot better when they have short seasons (in the 13 episode range), and tend to take a drop in quality if they have to fill out ~20 episodes instead.

The most acclaimed shows on TV these days tend to have short seasons. I don't think that is a coincidence.
And this makes me wonder why writers don't plan that kind of stuff out. Instead of stretching a 13-episode story arc across 20 episodes, why not tell it in 13 and then come up with another story arc for the back half of the season? Treat the narrative like two separate seasons instead of one long season that you need to fill out.
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Old October 1 2012, 04:41 PM   #173
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Re: Ewww.. SGU let's have some freaking protocol

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
There's no reason they couldn't have come up with more story material to properly fill twenty hours of television. All the padding and delay to the serial narrative was simply lazy writing.
Coming up with story material is one thing. Obviously, they came up with 20 hours' worth of story.

The hard part is turning those ideas into scripts. I've seen a pretty clear pattern where shows tend to be a lot better when they have short seasons (in the 13 episode range), and tend to take a drop in quality if they have to fill out ~20 episodes instead.

The most acclaimed shows on TV these days tend to have short seasons. I don't think that is a coincidence.
And this makes me wonder why writers don't plan that kind of stuff out. Instead of stretching a 13-episode story arc across 20 episodes, why not tell it in 13 and then come up with another story arc for the back half of the season? Treat the narrative like two separate seasons instead of one long season that you need to fill out.
Er, because you've just massively increased the writers' workload without any pay increase.

I think people forget that this is a job you get paid for, not something you are doing for fun. That's also why hardly anyone is planning out shows seasons in advance. JMS' Babylon 5 is notable for being the rare exception to that. But the vast, vast majority of shows are only planned out at a very skeletal level when they start, if at all. The showrunner might know how they want to end it, but may have no idea how to get from A to B.

When you begin, you also don't necessarily know if you are going to get 13 episodes, or 20, or 26. Hell, you might get canceled after two! It's very hard to plan in that kind of unpredictable environment. I try to be appreciative of the work that must go into that sort of adaptability.

Let none of that excuse the SGU writers, though. I would think they knew they were getting at least one 20-episode season, and they could've done a much better job, but this was also their first big foray into serialized storytelling, so they were bound to have some missteps. I think that was the real problem: taking people who'd spent over 10 years writing highly episodic, "fluffy" television, and putting them at the reins of a serialized drama. It could have worked, but the odds were against them.

I think it says something that some of the show's strongest episodes were ones involving SG-1 characters. The writers just never seemed very comfortable with their new cast, and liked to go back to the old one a bit too often.
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Old October 1 2012, 06:45 PM   #174
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Re: Ewww.. SGU let's have some freaking protocol

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post

Coming up with story material is one thing. Obviously, they came up with 20 hours' worth of story.

The hard part is turning those ideas into scripts. I've seen a pretty clear pattern where shows tend to be a lot better when they have short seasons (in the 13 episode range), and tend to take a drop in quality if they have to fill out ~20 episodes instead.

The most acclaimed shows on TV these days tend to have short seasons. I don't think that is a coincidence.
And this makes me wonder why writers don't plan that kind of stuff out. Instead of stretching a 13-episode story arc across 20 episodes, why not tell it in 13 and then come up with another story arc for the back half of the season? Treat the narrative like two separate seasons instead of one long season that you need to fill out.
Er, because you've just massively increased the writers' workload without any pay increase.

I think people forget that this is a job you get paid for, not something you are doing for fun. That's also why hardly anyone is planning out shows seasons in advance. JMS' Babylon 5 is notable for being the rare exception to that. But the vast, vast majority of shows are only planned out at a very skeletal level when they start, if at all. The showrunner might know how they want to end it, but may have no idea how to get from A to B.

When you begin, you also don't necessarily know if you are going to get 13 episodes, or 20, or 26. Hell, you might get canceled after two! It's very hard to plan in that kind of unpredictable environment. I try to be appreciative of the work that must go into that sort of adaptability.
If you don't know how many episodes you're getting, I can see planning an arc to be a problem. But if you know you're getting 20 episodes, how is it increasing anybody's workload? They're still writing the same number of episodes, just in a different way.

I'm not nitpicking SGU; I actually thought it was a great show, and I enjoyed the characters and stories for the most part. I'm just speaking in general. If you know you're being given a 20-episode season, and you want to have arc-based storytelling, make the most of those 20 episodes!
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Old October 1 2012, 08:18 PM   #175
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Re: Ewww.. SGU let's have some freaking protocol

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post

And this makes me wonder why writers don't plan that kind of stuff out. Instead of stretching a 13-episode story arc across 20 episodes, why not tell it in 13 and then come up with another story arc for the back half of the season? Treat the narrative like two separate seasons instead of one long season that you need to fill out.
Er, because you've just massively increased the writers' workload without any pay increase.

I think people forget that this is a job you get paid for, not something you are doing for fun. That's also why hardly anyone is planning out shows seasons in advance. JMS' Babylon 5 is notable for being the rare exception to that. But the vast, vast majority of shows are only planned out at a very skeletal level when they start, if at all. The showrunner might know how they want to end it, but may have no idea how to get from A to B.

When you begin, you also don't necessarily know if you are going to get 13 episodes, or 20, or 26. Hell, you might get canceled after two! It's very hard to plan in that kind of unpredictable environment. I try to be appreciative of the work that must go into that sort of adaptability.
If you don't know how many episodes you're getting, I can see planning an arc to be a problem. But if you know you're getting 20 episodes, how is it increasing anybody's workload? They're still writing the same number of episodes, just in a different way.

I'm not nitpicking SGU; I actually thought it was a great show, and I enjoyed the characters and stories for the most part. I'm just speaking in general. If you know you're being given a 20-episode season, and you want to have arc-based storytelling, make the most of those 20 episodes!
The complication that arises there, though, is, if you're a hit, The Network will force you to keep pumping out seasons. If you're a hit, it can be jsut as hard to negotiate ending after 5 seasons, as it for many many other shows to make it to 5 seasons.

So, if you have an Arc'ed Series, and know exactly how many episodes you need per season and how many seasons you need to tell it in (say 5 x 13 episodes), by the time S3 ends, you don't have much story left to tell, and if they want 3 more seasons, you are now stretching it out 50% longer than you intended.

It must be a real bear planning an arc, under these circumstances and "making every episode count". Additionally, you can't strip away all the "Character building" or "Slow Arc building" episodes, because those are needed in order to get the payoff on the "WHAM" episodes
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