7X05 The Angels Take Manhattan (Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!)

[P0sitr0nic]

Well, i know and you know its not a great written scenario. After all, all the Doctor needs to do is go back to a few years after they got there, and continue to visit them. Its not like theyre out of reach to him.

[Psion]

So that's the end of the Amelia Pond era. There was a distinctly fairy-tale quality to most of the episodes, and now I'm wondering how much of what we saw was stuff that actually happened and how much was the story the Doctor told little Amelia when he went back. Did the Doctor really travel with Amy and Rory, or was it all just a tale told to a little girl?

Throughout the fifth season, I wondered if the show was actually taking place in Amy's imagination. There was the timing glitch in "Victory of the Daleks" where Bracewell's plans for an oxygen/gravity bubble and blaster rays were implemented on Spitfires and launched into space in a mere twenty-two minutes. The story-book improbable Starwhale and its kindness towards children. That staple of children's nightmares, vampires. A history lesson in a visit with a great artist and the sad tragedy of a misunderstood monster. And through it all, that crack in time and the goofiness of the "Big Bang".

I will be very impressed if Moffat planned all this from "The Eleventh Hour". If he always intended the whole thing to loop back on that one scene with Amelia waiting and the subterfuge that led us all to believe it was just a dream.

If this is the case, who knows how much of what we've seen so far of Doctor Eleven has been real? Maybe he never came back for Amy and Rory twelve years later. Maybe he never married River Song.

The eleventh Doctor might be a different person when he's not telling tales about himself.

It's just idle speculation. I'm probably wrong. But if the Doctor seems more serious in the rest of the season; if he seems somehow more constrained by reality; if he never again mentions the Ponds or his marriage to River Song, the explanation just might have something to do with a Timelord filling a little girl's head with whimsical stories like a crazy old grandfather.

[The Wormhole]

It's certainly a good episode, and definitely the best of the season. But I wouldn't call it the masterpiece that much of the advance reviews did. Really, it's at times a bit derivitive of Moffat's previous work, and there's shades of Blink there, particularly with the book standing in for the DVD easter egg.

You know, way back when I first read spoilers for The Eleventh Hour revealing the Doctor would first meet Amy as a little girl, I just knew that when it came time to write Amy out of the show, her final episode would involve the Doctor visiting her as a child again. I don't mind, it is the logical way to end her storyline. Still, it was October 2009 I read that spoiler. If I had made a $20 wager with $5 interest per year, I could have made an easy $35 right now. Missed opportunities.

Continuity yet again takes a back seat. It's specifically stated in dialogue that the modern day scenes of this episode are set in 2012, even though the modern day stuff this season should be in I think 2016 by now (there's a post where I figure all this out in the discussion thread for The Power of Three). This could be explained by the Doctor just choosing to stop off in New York in 2012 after taking Amy and Rory to I don't know, the Boeshane Peninsula in the 51st century. But the whole surprise that Amy's wearing glasses kind of implies he's just picked them up from their lives again. Whatever, keeping consistent track of the dates never has been Doctor Who's strong suit anyway.

It still stands, the Doctor has never actually defeated the Weeping Angels. In Blink, it was Sally Sparrow who defeated them, in the two parter in S5 they got sucked into a crack, and here it was the paradox created by Rory jumping off the roof. I like this, being the one foe the Doctor hasn't ever defeated helps sell them as a serious threat.

So why does the grave have Rory's full name on it, but not Amy's? It's really weird, considering Amy's middle name was established back in The Beast Below (Jessica) and Rory's had to be created for this episode. Well, created probably isn't an accurate term, since it's Arthur. Also, I doubt it's coincidence that Rory aged 82 (Arthur Darvill was born in 1982) and Amy aged 87 (Karen Gillan was born in 1987). A bit odd there were no dates for either one.

Amy and Rory's fate is permanent enough, though there is a work around if they ever want to bring them back. That's fine, I guess. Can't River just go back with a vortex manipulator and visit them? Or did the paradox make it impossible for even that to work?

[Caretaker]

That's an interesting theory, Psion. It might also go to explaining the lack of mention of the events of The Miracle. On the other hand, if they pull that, it would lead to the inevitable comparison to the dream season of Dallas.

According to Moffat:

the final shot in Saturday's The Angels Take Manhattan is a punchline I have been waiting to tell for two and a half years.

[Alidar Jarok]

Dac wrote:

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I'm sorry. I am not a New Yorker, and even though I was aware it was Central Park, I just got that from "New York" and "Park". The shot where they are sitting on a rock? Thats the easiest composite ever. The shot where the Doctor sits down? I don't remember seeing that in the episode, although I guess it takes place after Rory is first taken? It certainly never happened at the end.

The shots where Rory walks through the city are something much harder to do through a composite and certainly wouldn't have the same feel. It reminds me of the City of Death - it just feels different when filming in the actual city in question.

Plus, you have no idea how much David Tennant was bitching about how he couldn't go to New York for the Dalek episode.

[Kruezerman]

Lonemagpie wrote:

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Except that all they and we know is there's a stone with their names on it. There's zero proof that they're under it. And even if there was, that just means they'd need to hold the funeral there.

It's no more a definite finality than the Doctor's gravestone in Revelation Of The Daleks was.

That's a good idea. It'd be interesting how this plays out. The ending disappointed me.

[RoJoHen]

So the next episode won't be until the Christmas Special, correct? Do we know much about that yet? I would love for it to be a Doctor/River episode.

[teacake]

Caretaker wrote:

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That's an interesting theory, Psion. It might also go to explaining the lack of mention of the events of The Miracle. On the other hand, if they pull that, it would lead to the inevitable comparison to the dream season of Dallas.

According to Moffat:

My goodness what does that mean?! Psion is freaking me out now. I mean it's a lovely ending but "punchline" seems to indicate more than that.

[Alidar Jarok]

I don't think it's supposed to be a dream (I'm not entirely sure it would even make sense). But it makes sense that Amy's fascination with the Raggedy Man comes from more than one encounter.

[The Wormhole]

RoJoHen wrote:

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So the next episode won't be until the Christmas Special, correct? Do we know much about that yet? I would love for it to be a Doctor/River episode.

It's set in Victorian times and the Doctor teams up with Madame Vastra and Jenny to fight an alien villain played by Richard E Grant. Oh, and I thnk I heard something about a new companion named Clara...

[Mr. Adventure]

teacake wrote:

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My goodness what does that mean?! Psion is freaking me out now. I mean it's a lovely ending but "punchline" seems to indicate more than that.

If nothing else, the Moff's propensity for clever twisty stuff makes the viewers second-guess everything.

[teacake]

The Wormhole wrote:

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It's set in Victorian times and the Doctor teams up with Madame Vastra and Jenny to fight an alien villain played by Richard E Grant. Oh, and I thnk I heard something about a new companion named Clara...

WHAT! I watched the "next xmas" preview but I didn't see that.

I am very happy.

[The Wormhole]

It wasn't in the trailer, but the spoilers are out there.

[Australis]

Hey anytone have any thoughts about this, very first shot from Angels:



Is that what I think it is?

[Ghost Bones]

Australis wrote:

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Hey anytone have any thoughts about this, very first shot from Angels:



Is that what I think it is?

What is it? Have you spotted Waldo?