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Old September 29 2012, 11:48 AM   #16
MacLeod
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Re: Are vulcans biologically smarter than humans?

mupps wrote: View Post
I think what they have is the focus and clarity to pursue intellectual pursuits more...diligently, then the average human.

A Vulcan probably spends decades on their education alone never mind what they do with that education.
Humans would have a broader sense of life and how to live it.
But a human who puts in the effort and time is probably a match for the best and brightest Vulcans.

As was said by C.E, they are intelligent but are they smart?

How much did T'Pol keep bringing up the dogmatic response that time travel was impossible...even when she saw evidence of it happeneing.
Ah yes, "The Vulcan science directerate has determined time travel to be impossible". But didn't some people contiinue to believe the Earth was flat when it was proven to be round? Sometimes long held beliefs take a while to overcome.
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Old September 29 2012, 12:05 PM   #17
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Are vulcans biologically smarter than humans?

How can there ever be such a thing as "biologically smarter"? Smarts aren't genetically encoded at birth. All that matters is how the person was raised and educated. We are all born 'dumb'.
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Old September 29 2012, 12:08 PM   #18
teacake
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Re: Are vulcans biologically smarter than humans?

That is incorrect. We are not blank slates. Our brains vary in wiring.
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Old September 29 2012, 12:38 PM   #19
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Re: Are vulcans biologically smarter than humans?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
How can there ever be such a thing as "biologically smarter"? Smarts aren't genetically encoded at birth. All that matters is how the person was raised and educated. We are all born 'dumb'.
O, but 'smarts' ARE encoded at birth:
IQ/intelligence is, in its largest part, encoded in one's DNA (on the basis of which one's nervous system grows).
And it has little enough to do with how much information one accumulates; nurture/education may nudge the intelligence up a bit - but not by much.

The idea that "Smarts aren't genetically encoded at birth" is an extremist PC position that has little to do with fact.
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Old September 29 2012, 04:18 PM   #20
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Re: Are vulcans biologically smarter than humans?

R. Star wrote: View Post
I see a question with no provable answer that is basically turning into a debate over who likes what race better.
Okay, sorry you see it that way. But like most things on a trek discussion forum, it was to solicit fan opinions. I understand there's no provable answer, as we neither have access to vulcan IQ tests nor is anyone here a writer of in-canon universe stories. Thanks for chiming in though.
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Old September 29 2012, 06:17 PM   #21
Hando
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Re: Are vulcans biologically smarter than humans?

LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
I see a question with no provable answer that is basically turning into a debate over who likes what race better.
Okay, sorry you see it that way. But like most things on a trek discussion forum, it was to solicit fan opinions. I understand there's no provable answer, as we neither have access to vulcan IQ tests nor is anyone here a writer of in-canon universe stories. Thanks for chiming in though.
Well, actually we do have something to go by: the "school" tests in nuTrek.

We have a way of comparison, just take a look at how today's IQ test are set up. If humans and Vulcans were to take them the result would be Augment IQ > Vulcan IQ > Human IQ.


Given that humans always - as far as we know - over took the Vulcans in the development department, we could say that the humans are perhaps more creative then Vulcans. Vulcan can remember more - which should be an positive (in the future you need a greater mix of knowledge to come to new idea - at least according to a theory I read somewhere), but it is not seen anywhere.

Perhaps the answer is this (I will use IQ as an example) Vulcans are 120+/-5 to human 100+/-40. So humans have a higher chance of a genius, or an idiot at the other hand, then Vulcans. And if you calculate in the population, humans have an advantage.
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Old September 29 2012, 06:40 PM   #22
R. Star
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Re: Are vulcans biologically smarter than humans?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
How can there ever be such a thing as "biologically smarter"? Smarts aren't genetically encoded at birth. All that matters is how the person was raised and educated. We are all born 'dumb'.
Not true. There are people who simply learn things more easily and take to new concepts than others. Intelligence really could be described merely as to know readily one processes new information. Education is the knowledge itself, not how easily or not it's learned and processed.

It stands to reason that if there were alien races some would be more biologically intelligent than others. Even among humans there's proven genetic intelligence... why else do Ivy League graduates get sought out at the sperm banks so often?
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Old September 29 2012, 08:05 PM   #23
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Re: Are vulcans biologically smarter than humans?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
They suck at being scientists
They are horrible scientists, but perhaps superior technicians.

teacake wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Did the Vulcans invent transwarp beaming?
They did all that when we were smelting bronze.
Thinking back to Enterprise, did Vulcans invent transporters at all? Or had their science directorate authorities determined that beaming was impossible?

mupps wrote: View Post
How much did T'Pol keep bringing up the dogmatic response that time travel was impossible...even when she saw evidence of it happeneing.
Consider the episode Journey to Babel, Sarek and his party traveled from the surface of Vulcan to Kirk's ship by shuttle.

While Spock and later Tuvok did use the transporter, did Sub-commander T'Pol ever travel by transporter? I can't remember it happening even once. Her dogma might have convinced her that nothing would happen if she entered the transporter chamber.

teacake wrote: View Post
I doubt they allow sub intelligent Vulcans to breed
Maybe that a part of the arranged marriage thing. Combining blood lines that produce increasingly intelligent children.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
How can there ever be such a thing as "biologically smarter"? Smarts aren't genetically encoded at birth.
But the capacity for intelligence and "smarts" is. Humans are more intelligent than animals, no matter how much education you give a animal, it will never rise to average Human levels.

This could be the case with Humans (and other Federation sapient species) and Vulcans, their physical/biological brain might be capable of more intelligence.

Hando wrote: View Post
Well, actually we do have something to go by: the "school" tests in nuTrek.
And at the beginning of Voyage Home. Spock did well in the tests he was taking on matters of memory and problem solving. But when asked a question that required retrospection and insight, Spock stalled, he couldn't understand the question.

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Old September 29 2012, 08:08 PM   #24
mupps
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Re: Are vulcans biologically smarter than humans?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
mupps wrote: View Post
I think what they have is the focus and clarity to pursue intellectual pursuits more...diligently, then the average human.

A Vulcan probably spends decades on their education alone never mind what they do with that education.
Humans would have a broader sense of life and how to live it.
But a human who puts in the effort and time is probably a match for the best and brightest Vulcans.

As was said by C.E, they are intelligent but are they smart?

How much did T'Pol keep bringing up the dogmatic response that time travel was impossible...even when she saw evidence of it happeneing.
Ah yes, "The Vulcan science directerate has determined time travel to be impossible". But didn't some people contiinue to believe the Earth was flat when it was proven to be round? Sometimes long held beliefs take a while to overcome.
Some people still claim that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society
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Old September 30 2012, 08:56 AM   #25
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Re: Are vulcans biologically smarter than humans?

teacake wrote: View Post
That is incorrect. We are not blank slates. Our brains vary in wiring.
I would argue against this statement because its our environment and the way we are raised (not to mention presented with certain options), along with exposure to certain information (and a whole bunch of other factors that have nothing to do with 'mental wiring') what varies quite a lot.
Even people who were born in the same environment, exposed to same 'education' will be each treated differently, wether by their parents or their peers, and their exposure to information (relevant or otherwise along with education will be different) - in some cases, the differences will probably be subtle (in others, large), but it would still have a profound impact on ones development (ranging all the way back to fetal development - nutritional intake/diet, external stimulation impacting the body and the fetus growth - all of those are factors that can and probably do influence Human development).
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Old September 30 2012, 06:10 PM   #26
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Are vulcans biologically smarter than humans?

To believe that Vulcans are, or even could be, smarter than humans is to believe that Vulcans are superior to humans. That is a most illogical and bigoted way to behave. In other words, it's Solok from "Take Me Out to the Holosuite".
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Old September 30 2012, 06:38 PM   #27
R. Star
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Re: Are vulcans biologically smarter than humans?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
To believe that Vulcans are, or even could be, smarter than humans is to believe that Vulcans are superior to humans. That is a most illogical and bigoted way to behave. In other words, it's Solok from "Take Me Out to the Holosuite".
So is it bigoted to say that human men are generally physically stronger than women too?
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Old September 30 2012, 08:44 PM   #28
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Are vulcans biologically smarter than humans?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
To believe that Vulcans are, or even could be, smarter than humans is to believe that Vulcans are superior to humans. That is a most illogical and bigoted way to behave. In other words, it's Solok from "Take Me Out to the Holosuite".
If vulcans are smarter than humans, then saying or believing exactly this is neither illogical, not bigoted. Why? Because it's the TRUTH.

And if you equate 'superior' with 'smarter/more intelligent', then yes, vulcans were depicted as superior to humans - politically correct squeamishness changing nothing of this.
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Old September 30 2012, 08:49 PM   #29
T'Girl
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Re: Are vulcans biologically smarter than humans?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Vulcans are superior to humans
Perhaps intellectually superior. But as has been noted, intelligence and smarts are two different things. Humans as a group would seem to be smarter than Vulcans.

And a serious case could be made that Vulcans are culturally inferior to Humans, and socially stunted. Both of which could have to do with their brain architecture.

Deks wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
That is incorrect. We are not blank slates. Our brains vary in wiring.

I would argue against this statement because
its our environment and the way we are raised

(not to mention presented with certain options),

along with exposure to certain information
(and a whole bunch of other factors that have nothing to do with 'mental wiring')

what varies quite a lot.


Even people who were born in the same environment,
exposed to same 'education' will be each treated differently,
whether by their parents or their peers, and their exposure to information

(relevant or otherwise along with education will be different) -

in some cases, the differences will probably be subtle
(in others, large),

but it would still have a profound impact on ones development
(ranging all the way back to fetal development - nutritional intake/diet, external stimulation impacting the body and the fetus growth - all of those are factors that can and probably do influence Human development).
I'm sorry, but how does your response argue against Teacake's statement that "We are not blank slates. Our brains vary in wiring." Teacake never claimed that environment wasn't a contributing factor.
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Old September 30 2012, 11:25 PM   #30
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Are vulcans biologically smarter than humans?

R. Star wrote: View Post
So is it bigoted to say that human men are generally physically stronger than women too?
There are strong women, and there are weak men. So you tell me.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
If vulcans are smarter than humans
That has not been established.

then saying or believing exactly this is neither illogical, not bigoted. Why? Because it's the TRUTH.
Something tells me that line of reasoning has been used before...

The Vulcan educational system may indeed be superior to ours. Given what little we've seen of it (Spock's training in ST XI, for example), I'll concede that. But I won't concede that all Vulcans are smarter than humans. There is wide variation in individuals of every species.
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