7X05 The Angels Take Manhattan (Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!)

[Samurai8472]

Kai "the spy" wrote:

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Davies would have at least used the "Angel of Liberty" in a pivotal way.

Tenth Doctor- CyberKing c'mon out!





RTD- Who doesn't want to see a CyberKing and the Statue of Liberty duke it out in NYC

[Mr. Adventure]

I gotta admit this talk got me thinking about the Cyberking as well.

[Alidar Jarok]

StCoop wrote:

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How about not having had the previous series revolve around the idea that you can cheat your way past any sort of paradox or unchangable fixed point in time with the aid of a handy robot?

Well, technically, he showed that changing the events (not having River shoot the Doctor) causes everything to get fucked up. Just what it also shows is that we are sometimes mistaken about what that fixed point actually is. I realize technically, they only know for a fact that a gravestone has to appear, but that doesn't mean they can risk it.

[Starkers]

Worf2DS9 wrote:

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I enjoyed the episode for the most part. Aside from the silliness of the Statue of Liberty gag (it's not even stone!), my main issue is why Amy blinking at the end would allow the angel to zap her back in time. Both the Doctor and River were both looking towards Amy and therefore the Angel. Even if they weren't looking directly at the Angel, focussing their attention on Amy, they'd still see the Angel in the corner of their eye, thus keeping it solid. Surely Amy's slim frame wasn't blocking it entirely from view.

Something else that bugged me (and this has nothing to do with the episode itself) was SPACE cutting to commercial after the opening titles! I don't recall them ever doing that before.

I took it that Amy was between the Angel and the Doctor/River, so she was the only one technically looking at the Angel, hence when she turned she was zapped.

[Starkers]

Oh yeah, and another moment I loved, not sure if anyone's mentioned it, was the Doctor's face when River told him she was a Professor now!

[Kruezerman]

My problem are the open story lines:

1. Brian Williams
2. The Fields of Trenzalore
3. Amy and Rory's life back in 2012 (or 2020, whatever)
4. River
5. The inbetween bits with the Doctor (he aged three hundred some odd years and we weren't a part of it!)

But my biggest problem was that it felt like a half assed good bye, like the PTB were just dumping them off. I felt the emotion, but I kinda felt like it was forced. One thing I do miss is the familial part of the current Who, Rose and her mother, Martha and her parents, Donna and her family, with Amy we saw her family, maybe once for five minutes. That doesn't really work for me. Doctor Who in the Tennant era was a very human experience with family and emotion working alongside the fun, this is turning into your run of the mill sci-fi adventure. It's becoming generic and it's almost becoming forgettable to me.

[Mister Fandango]

StCoop wrote:

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The typical response of the Moffat Fan. "You're all too stupid to understand his Genius."

When it's true it's true, as it is in this case (see the last response below).

So how did the Statue Of Liberty wander around Manhattan without anyone noticing, or it being constantly stopped by people looking at it? Use only information contained in the episode itself while answering.

The same way no one noticed a giant Cyberking was being constructed in 1851. Or how dragging Earth through space didn't cause even a single tidal wave or earthquake (or any of the other countless disasters that should have coincided with it). Or having a massive planet closer to Earth than the Moon is didn't fuck either world over. Or how the Titanic successfully crashed into the TARDIS. Or any of the other countless bouts of random stupidity that came from RTD's tenure.

How does not being able to visit New York in 1938 stop the Doctor rescuing Amy and Rory in any one of a dozen other ways? Actually make it two dozen since River must be able to visit them whenever she wants in order to drop off her book manuscript. Use only information contained in the episode itself while answering.

This has been explained several times. Feel free to go back and re-read any of the posts in which it has been addressed. Including the one you replied to.

(Hint: It's not that they couldn't find a way to go back, it's that doing so would likely cause the world to go kaboomy. And, since they're all nice and happy back then and lived to a ripe old age, there was no real imperative to go back and risk destroying the entire planet to save them from their happy little life that they were already longing for.)

[Alidar Jarok]

For what it's worth, I would use "bouts of random stupidity" affectionately (except the CyberKing, that was just bad).

[Allyn Gibson]

Kruezerman wrote:

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3. Amy and Rory's life back in 2012 (or 2020, whatever)

Considering that Amy was reading a newspaper with a headline screaming that the Detroit Lions had won the Super Bowl (which would happen in February) while Central Park was in full flower (which would happen in April), the Doctor must have picked Amy and Rory up in February 2020-1 the day after the Lions won the Super Bowl and then taken them back to April 2012 for a picnic and Amy brought her newspaper along because she really wanted to read it.

[Starkers]

Kruezerman wrote:

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My problem are the open story lines:

1. Brian Williams
2. The Fields of Trenzalore
3. Amy and Rory's life back in 2012 (or 2020, whatever)
4. River
5. The inbetween bits with the Doctor (he aged three hundred some odd years and we weren't a part of it!)

But my biggest problem was that it felt like a half assed good bye, like the PTB were just dumping them off. I felt the emotion, but I kinda felt like it was forced. One thing I do miss is the familial part of the current Who, Rose and her mother, Martha and her parents, Donna and her family, with Amy we saw her family, maybe once for five minutes. That doesn't really work for me. Doctor Who in the Tennant era was a very human experience with family and emotion working alongside the fun, this is turning into your run of the mill sci-fi adventure. It's becoming generic and it's almost becoming forgettable to me.

I actually quite liked that we saw Rose's home life, I thought it was an interesting new take on a companion, unfortunately I didn't need to see it with every single companion, nor did I need it to be so similar (the harridan of a mother and the weak father). I hope we don't see any of clara's family, which doesn't mean I want us to never see a companion's real life again, I just don't think it needs overdoing, and doing all the time.

Of course this isn't a nu Who thing really. Nyssa saw her father often

[Alidar Jarok]

Amy and Rory's life in the present time period isn't really an open storyline. It's pretty clearly closed. They chose the Doctor over that life and then they got zapped back in time.

Brian isn't exactly an open storyline, but it's a shame that he won't see his son anymore (then again, neither would the parents of any companion who died).

River and the fields of Tranzalore are likely still yet to come. The gaps in the Doctor's life was for a specific story reason and because it allows flexibility if they later want to claim something happened in the 11th Doctor's life that we didn't see (and for books, audio dramas, and fan fiction).

ETA: For what it's worth, I liked not seeing Amy's family. The show is about their travels, not their family. I thought having Rose's family was a nice change of pace and I liked Donna's family so it was worthwhile (Martha's family were relatively pointless), but it isn't necessary each time.

[StCoop]

Mister Fandango wrote:

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(Hint: It's not that they couldn't find a way to go back, it's that doing so would likely cause the world to go kaboomy.

Wrong. It's stated more than once that only New York would be in danger. Try again.

[StCoop]

Mister Fandango wrote:

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(Hint: It's not that they couldn't find a way to go back, it's that doing so would likely cause the world to go kaboomy.

Wrong. It's stated more than once that only New York would be in danger. Try again.

Mister Fandango wrote:

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The same way no one noticed a giant Cyberking was being constructed in 1851. Or how dragging Earth through space didn't cause even a single tidal wave or earthquake (or any of the other countless disasters that should have coincided with it). Or having a massive planet closer to Earth than the Moon is didn't fuck either world over. Or how the Titanic successfully crashed into the TARDIS. Or any of the other countless bouts of random stupidity that came from RTD's tenure.

Ah the old "the other guy did it" defense. I though Moffat was supposed to be far superior to Davies?

[VDCNI]

Mister Fandango wrote:

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When it's true it's true, as it is in this case (see the last response below).

The same way no one noticed a giant Cyberking was being constructed in 1851. Or how dragging Earth through space didn't cause even a single tidal wave or earthquake (or any of the other countless disasters that should have coincided with it). Or having a massive planet closer to Earth than the Moon is didn't fuck either world over. Or how the Titanic successfully crashed into the TARDIS. Or any of the other countless bouts of random stupidity that came from RTD's tenure.

This has been explained several times. Feel free to go back and re-read any of the posts in which it has been addressed. Including the one you replied to.

(Hint: It's not that they couldn't find a way to go back, it's that doing so would likely cause the world to go kaboomy. And, since they're all nice and happy back then and lived to a ripe old age, there was no real imperative to go back and risk destroying the entire planet to save them from their happy little life that they were already longing for.)

So since RTD did stupid things that excuses Moffatt from doing the same!? Some of us watch the show on its own merits and don't turn everything into some imaginary battle between two different showrunners.

[Mister Fandango]

VDCNI wrote:

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So since RTD did stupid things that excuses Moffatt from doing the same!? Some of us watch the show on its own merits and don't turn everything into some imaginary battle between two different showrunners.

When the argument is that it only crops up during Moffatt's tenure and that RTD was some kind of angelic saint who never included stupid crap in his shows, yes, it very much does. Do try to keep up with the conversation.