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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old September 23 2012, 03:51 AM   #16
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Yesterday's Enterprise timeline

Like I said, the temporal rift always happened. There was never a timeline where it didn't.
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Old September 23 2012, 04:16 AM   #17
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Re: Yesterday's Enterprise timeline

That doesn't matter though, if you start going back and forth through it, things are going to change on the future side of it. And if you reset the timeline, the altered Yar, would be canceled out unless it was a 3rd timeline.
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Old September 23 2012, 04:40 AM   #18
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Re: Yesterday's Enterprise timeline

^ Not necessarily. Alt-Yar came from an alternate timeline, yes. And if she had stayed in that timeline, then she would have ceased to exist. But she did not. She was taken out of that timeline. Therefore she continued to exist.
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Old September 23 2012, 04:43 AM   #19
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Re: Yesterday's Enterprise timeline

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Not necessarily. Alt-Yar came from an alternate timeline, yes. And if she had stayed in that timeline, then she would have ceased to exist. But she did not. She was taken out of that timeline. Therefore she continued to exist.
How was she born if the timeline she was born in was canceled out?
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Old September 23 2012, 04:46 AM   #20
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Re: Yesterday's Enterprise timeline

^ I have no idea. But it happened nonetheless.

Just because a timeline was overwritten doesn't mean it NEVER existed. Obviously it once existed.
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Old September 23 2012, 05:03 AM   #21
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Re: Yesterday's Enterprise timeline

Because the changes in the alternate timeline occurred when she was an adult, and created a "new" history where Tasha served aboard the Enterprise longer and the war meant the Enterprise likely didn't perform some of the same missions it did in the proper timeline. To use my previous example, one of the problems with retconning the AoA into a parallel earth is that the choices of some characters were based on it being an altered 616 earth with a new timeline based on Legion's changes. Colossus, who was a rather unstable individual in the AoA, left most of his team to die at the hands of Apocalypse's forces because he didn't want Bishop to restore the "proper" history. If that occurred, his sister Magik (who never gained some of her normal powers in the AoA because she never encountered Belasco), would be dead from the Legacy Virus (which had already been unleashed by the time Legion tried to kill Magneto). Colossus wanted her to remain alive, and cared so little about other things that he accidentally killed Shadowcat when she tried to reason with him.

It's a fine line between arguing for a predestination paradox (and I see where MLB is going with that) and arguing for an alternate future where many things are still conveniently similar, like most of the E-D crew still serving on the same ship in the same positions. It's a less radical shift than what's depicted in the AoA, but that wouldn't preclude the possibility of a character from that timeline ending up in the "normal" present after Bishop had restored things. That's essentially what happened with Blink's AoA counterpart, who was separated from her home reality to join the Exiles. Her 616 counterpart was only introduced later, and then for a short time before she was seemingly killed trying to stop the Phalanx. Only more recently did she reappear as one of Selene's followers, having become a vicious killer who believes the X-Men "abandoned" her to her fate and didn't try to save her.
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Old September 23 2012, 01:21 PM   #22
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Re: Yesterday's Enterprise timeline

I don't know if that helps, but since this thread is reminding me of various problems, I had gotten used to forget or ignore, reconsidering the issue I now come up with a one letter explanation: Q

Two episodes prior to "Yesterday's Enterprise" Guinan assaulted Q with a fork causing him considerable pain and despite Q's good mood at the end of "Déjà Q" I can't help but wonder if omnipotent Q simply forgave Guinan her assault on him.

After all, it's Guinan who's facing the biggest challenge in "Yesterday's Enterprise", i.e. persuading Captain Picard that he has to send the Enterprise-C back in time to restore the correct course of events.
And she probably is well aware that she's also struggling for her own existence: Since the timeline has also been changed back to the 23rd Century (!) and we see a powerful Klingon Empire where Praxis probably did not explode (ST VI) it's doubtful that there would have ever been an Enterprise-B coming to Guinan's rescue (ST VII).
While she may be aware that this is another of Q's doing, there is no point bringing it up to the Captain Picard of the alternate timeline who has never heard of or met a Q.

The whole business with Tasha is another thing that could hint this direction. Though Q put her in a "penalty box" in "Hide and Q" he quickly lifted this kind of punishment.
At the end of "Déjà Q" he left Data with a gift but not the others. Being aware of the crew's sympathies for Tasha (unless he had a crush for her himself), he may have been inclined to create a scenario where Tasha's death would at least have a meaning rather than her stupid freak accident death in "Skin of Evil".

Just my 0.02$

Bob
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Old September 23 2012, 07:21 PM   #23
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Re: Yesterday's Enterprise timeline

I don't think that quite works out right. Praxis' explosion happened fifty years befoe the Enterprise C battled the Romulans.

As to the technicalities of the timelines in the OP, I would suggest that the Tasha timeline is the alternate one. It completely deviated from the one we had been watching for the previous two and a half seasons. The only way the alternate timeline exists is when the Enterprise C emerges from the rift, and it ceases to exist when it goes back. The actual timeline is therefore always the corrected one.
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Old September 26 2012, 05:04 AM   #24
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Re: Yesterday's Enterprise timeline

So as I've suggested before in another thread, with all of this said, is it unreasonable to think that in Trek 09 that maybe at the end of the movie run or whatever, the altered timeline will some way be merged back into the prime timeline? Would that even be possible?
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Old September 26 2012, 05:12 PM   #25
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Re: Yesterday's Enterprise timeline

Seven of Five wrote: View Post
"I don't think that quite works out right. Praxis' explosion happened fifty years befoe the Enterprise C battled the Romulans."
There has to be an explanation why the Klingon Empire is so powerful in the alternate timeline with the Federation on the verge of defeat, while in the "real" reality it's there but no longer such an important player (possibly because of Praxis' explosion).

If Q had a hand in these events, there's no telling how much he actually changed the original timeline. And to have most of the "real" Enterprise's crew working as a team in the alternate timeline, too, is such a colossal coincidence and so highly improbable, that it's rather likely than unlikely that Q had something to do with it.

Bob
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Old September 26 2012, 05:16 PM   #26
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Re: Yesterday's Enterprise timeline

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
There has to be an explanation why the Klingon Empire is so powerful in the alternate timeline with the Federation on the verge of defeat, while in the "real" reality it's there but no longer such an important player (possibly because of Praxis' explosion).
As has been pointed out, Praxis happened decades before the events of this episode. So its destruction must exist in both timelines.

Perhaps in the war future, the Klingons were so pissed off that it motivated them to go all-out in their war with the Federation? They could have embarked on a massive shipbuilding campaign that didn't happen in the 'real' timeline.
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Old September 26 2012, 10:58 PM   #27
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Re: Yesterday's Enterprise timeline

It's also mentioned that the war dragged on for two decades, with the Feds still able to win at least some minor victories even while nearing defeat (Riker mentions the Klingons were trounced at the alternate Archer IV). That suggests the war was based on attrition to some extent, and other powers might have helped one faction or the other even if they didn't directly get involved (which would widen the war, not necessarily desirable).
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Old September 27 2012, 09:29 PM   #28
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Re: Yesterday's Enterprise timeline

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Like I said, the temporal rift always happened. There was never a timeline where it didn't.
This.

As mentioned before it is easier to think of this from the perspective of the "C".

Think of it like this....

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Old September 27 2012, 10:00 PM   #29
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Re: Yesterday's Enterprise timeline

The Klingon War timeline is the original timeline. The Enterprise C disappears and history continues without interference to the war outcome. Then it appears in the future and is sent back, creating the history we all had been watching on TV.
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Old September 30 2012, 09:52 AM   #30
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Re: Yesterday's Enterprise timeline

UssGlenn wrote: View Post
The Klingon War timeline is the original timeline. The Enterprise C disappears and history continues without interference to the war outcome. Then it appears in the future and is sent back, creating the history we all had been watching on TV.
That's how I'd think of it too, except it doesn't explain the visual shift at the beginning, nor Guinan's knowledge of the TNG history.

This episode reminds me of "Yesteryear" - good, but the time travel makes no sense whatsoever.
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