7X05 The Angels Take Manhattan (Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!)

[captain crow]

Blah. A rushed and predictable mess. Amy and Rory's exit wasn't a suprise at all. Most people had already guessed them being sent to the past in an unretrievable way when the Angels were first announced as the baddies for Darvill and Gillan's final episode. And Moffat's "Oh, I'm so cleaver ending it where it began" moment with young Amelia fell a little flat since he's already used variations of that plot device about four times already. In fact, this makes it the third series final in a row that Moff has used the time loop plot device in some fashion.

Also, was it really necessary to make Rory a complete tit in the end?

Doctor: Let's go to a pub in the TARDIS.

Rory: Just a mo'. I want to look at a gravestone in the opposite direction of the TARDIS for no particular reason.

[Rory looks at gravestone]

Rory: Amy, come and see. Some dead bloke has got the same name as me. What are the odds of that happening out of a planetary population of about seven billion?

[Rory gormlessly stares at Amy then gets zapped by the Angel]

What a shit final moment for an often shat upon character.

[VDCNI]

Yes I thought that scene was really badly done. If they had done it in a creepy, spooky way so he had to look at the tombstone that might of worked or even directed it better so he didn't end up turning round and walking back to it for no apparent reason.

[Cutter John]

VDCNI wrote:

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Yes I thought that scene was really badly done. If they had done it in a creepy, spooky way so he had to look at the tombstone that might of worked or even directed it better so he didn't end up turning round and walking back to it for no apparent reason.

Yeah, there needed to at least be a comment that he was going to fetch something they forgot or something to explain his walking back.

Unless it was just one of those "he felt strangely drawn to that tombstone" sort of things.

[VDCNI]

Mister Fandango wrote:

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That said, it's amazing how collectively and irrationally hate-filled and racist (nationist?) British folks become. It's downright amusing, even.

Well that's a sweeping generalisation, very offensive and based on absolutely nothing in this thread. Maybe you need to think before you post in future.

[VDCNI]

Cutter John wrote:

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Yeah, there needed to at least be a comment that he was going to fetch something they forgot or something to explain his walking back.

Unless it was just one of those "he felt strangely drawn to that tombstone" sort of things.

I wondered if that was the intention but it wasn't directed like that - it just came from nowhere.

[teacake]

Enterprise is Great wrote:

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She was wearing a dress? I was mesmerized by the cleavage.

I spent a ridiculous amount of time thinking about what the construction of the bra might be.

[Orac Zen]

...yeah. Not happy, Jan.

Leaving aside the angels' abilities / properties being retconned again, the ludicrousness of a Statue of Liberty-sized angel wandering around the place without anyone noticing (cool as the concept may be) and Rory just arbitrarily deciding to wander back and check out the gravestone, there's the fact the Ponds were killed off at all. I simply don't see the need. Thankfully it wasn't a Donna-style complete character assassination (don't get me started on that, btw), but I dunno - even though it was obvious to anyone they were going to be killed off, it just seems so unimaginative. There were any number of ways to remove the Ponds from the scene, and Moffat went with the death option. I'd hoped for better, even though I knew I wasn't going to get it. And for the Doctor to offhandedly remark to River at the end "Oh yeah, they were your parents, weren't they. Sorry about that" ...good grief, how pathetic. Way to make the Doctor look like a complete jerk on top of everything else.

There were things I liked. The baby angels were absolutely creeptacular (that insane giggling was brilliantly creepy), the Doctor primping for River (who'd better be back at some point) was hilarious, the whole power of love thing with the Ponds was surprisingly effective and well done by both Gillan and Darvill, and the final shot of Amelia...waiting...was genuinely moving. On the whole, though...eh. Very eh. And I'm left wondering what the point of River being Amy and Rory's daughter even was, given how rarely it's been referred to since.

I didn't much like Oswald / Oswin / whatever so I'm not sure how much I'm looking forward to the next batch of episodes, but I'll give it a whirl anyway. Overall (and for the very little it's worth) I've not been overly impressed with this part season; hopefully it'll get better from here.

[teacake]

But they didn't die.They went into the past and lived into their 80's.

[Ghost Bones]

tomalak301 wrote:

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If I were to rank the companions from favorite to least favorite:

Donna
Rory
Rose
Captain Jack
Amy
Martha

Hopefully I'm not forgetting any.

I suppose the obvious joke is "about two dozen".

Mister Fandango wrote:

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That said, it's amazing how collectively and irrationally hate-filled and racist (nationist?) British folks become. It's downright amusing, even.

Oh it is, is it? How about Africans, are they funny too?

You want to be a bit more careful saying things like that, people might make judgements about you.

[tomalak301]

Ghost Bones wrote:

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I suppose the obvious joke is "about two dozen".

I haven't forgotten any of the old ones if I've never seen the old ones. I thought we know this by now. Not everyone in this forum has seen the original series.

[Guy Gardener]

Kruezerman wrote:

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The best of the bunch this season. Damn near brought me to tears. It's kinda like Donna with this situation.

That being said, it could've been a two-parter to flesh out the story a bit.

I was thinking about how extremely mournful River reacted when meeting Donna in the library, when she had this bollocks already to help her define being buggered by fate.

[Wereghost]

Average.

This may be Moffat's weakest story, which admittedly is not saying a lot. It felt more like a collection of (sometimes really good) moments than a proper narrative, especially given the many plot contrivances and anomalies. I got the impression that Moffat thought it was more poignant (and perhaps cleverer) than I did. But then, maybe advance knowledge of certain things was a bad thing.

Liked the banter between the three at the start, and the River/Doctor interaction was nice. I guess this episode won't prove to be Kingston's swansong, as River probably turns up at the Fields Of Trenzalore and learns the Doctor's name. (I'm also a little surprised that Moffat didn't take the obvious narrative decision of letting the Williamses find out about River's fate and the Doctor's dissimulation in keeping it secret. That seems like drama gold right there.)

The transfer of regeneration energy feels like it's a setup for something. Could it be that River now has enough to regenerate, or that the Doctor doesn't? (The Ten-to-Ten regeneration should count as one or part of one, leaving Eleven with not quite two regenerations initially.)

All in all, I think Chibnall and not Moffat is this season's best writer so far, and it's starting to look like he's the heir apparent to the job of showrunner.

[Plain Simple]

I enjoyed this episode quite a bit. Unlike some here, I hadn't been keeping up with all the news and spoilers and whatnot, so I while I was aware that this would be the Ponds' last episode, I didn't know how it would happen. In the first few episodes of the series, they made it look like Amy and Rory would just choose to stop traveling with the Doctor, but the ending of last week's episode seemed to kill that option. Which made me hope it would be a double bluff and they would still go that (or a similar) route, but I thought this combined happy/sad ending worked well too.

Weeping Liberty worked well just for the visuals, but once you start thinking about it, it all falls apart. I guess that fits well with a time travel episode and an Angel episode (I never understand from an in-story pov, why the Angels don't move around more, even when no one's looking. I get it from a scary tv production pov, but there is usually no reason in the story itself).

Coincidentally I also finished watching all the classic Who available on Netflix just a few days ago, so I'll be going cold turkey now. I hope withdrawal is mild on me.

[davejames]

Thought it was pretty damn good. The angels might not be quite as scary or interesting as when we first saw them, but they were still used well here. Especially since we got to see a few different versions this time.

And the way the detective novel played into it I thought was really clever and inspired too.

The only thing that brings it down a bit is the time travel issues people have already talked about. After 3 seasons of watching this Doctor play incredibly fast and loose with time travel, it's a bit strange to suddenly see him talking about "rigid rules" again and about events that "can't be changed no matter what." The idea that he would just abandon Amy and Rory to the past and not at least TRY to bend the rules and bring them back is a bit hard to believe.

Plus this ending with the Ponds (good though it is) just can't help but feel a bit superfluous, given that they already HAD the perfect ending last season. I'm still frankly a bit baffled as to why Moffat wanted to bring them back again. As much as I love the characters, it just doesn't feel like their presence was ever truly justified this time around.

[The Mirrorball Man]

RE: The Statue of Liberty thing.

Every image of an angel becomes an angel. Maybe this wasn't the actual Statue of Liberty.