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Old September 30 2012, 06:03 AM   #91
teacake
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Re: Kate Mulgrew's decision to not have a romance

Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
My theory with "Counterpoint" is that Janeway was manipulating Kashyk the whole time, and she used some seduction to do it. Come on, who can't see that Kashyk had the hots for her as well? There was sexual tension between the both of them in that episode.
Yes there was, and yes she did use seduction. But she didn't pull it out of nothingness, it was obviously based on some real sexual attraction, as was his actions. That's why the episode was so great, they both were playing a game that they both kind of wanted to fall for.
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Old September 30 2012, 06:07 AM   #92
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Re: Kate Mulgrew's decision to not have a romance

Yes it is a moral failing.

Along with that girl who ditched Kirk to shack up with Khan to play house on Ceti Alpha 5.

Did you just mean to claim that Kathryn was prematurely gray south of her navel?
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Old September 30 2012, 06:09 AM   #93
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Re: Kate Mulgrew's decision to not have a romance

No I was quoting Ben Franklin.

How is it a moral failing for Janeway to have been sexually attracted to someone who presented as possibly not a dickhead?
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Old September 30 2012, 06:17 AM   #94
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Re: Kate Mulgrew's decision to not have a romance

He rounded up gene-traitors to be worked to death in a concentration camp.

Stuck children in cages, and (logically) drugged them that they wouldn't hurt themselves.

He can't make his quota if the telepaths commit suicide on his watch.
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Old September 30 2012, 06:24 AM   #95
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Re: Kate Mulgrew's decision to not have a romance

But he's sorry.

He wishes to redeem himself!

I think Janeway genuinely held out some hope that he was authentically repentant and wanting to make amends. Let's say for a moment this was true and there was no falsehood in his story. Would having the hots for him still be a moral failure once there was longer a possibility that he was full of shit?
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Last edited by teacake; September 30 2012 at 06:47 AM.
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Old September 30 2012, 06:52 AM   #96
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Re: Kate Mulgrew's decision to not have a romance

So the only reason that Lon Suder wasn't allowed a stab at redemption was that he was a little too unattractive?
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Old September 30 2012, 06:55 AM   #97
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Re: Kate Mulgrew's decision to not have a romance

He was clearly still a danger to others. He was given his stab at redemption with his meditation sessions with Tuvok which were ongoing. In Basics he was still a very edgy crazy person despite how far he had come.
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Old September 30 2012, 06:56 AM   #98
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Re: Kate Mulgrew's decision to not have a romance

teacake wrote: View Post
Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
My theory with "Counterpoint" is that Janeway was manipulating Kashyk the whole time, and she used some seduction to do it. Come on, who can't see that Kashyk had the hots for her as well? There was sexual tension between the both of them in that episode.
Yes there was, and yes she did use seduction. But she didn't pull it out of nothingness, it was obviously based on some real sexual attraction, as was his actions. That's why the episode was so great, they both were playing a game that they both kind of wanted to fall for.
Exactly. The attraction was obviously mutual, and that's what makes the episode so interesting, because that attraction adds another layer to the tension and manipulation.

teacake wrote: View Post
But he's sorry.

He wishes to redeem himself!

I think Janeway genuinely held out some hope that he was authentically repentant and wanting to make amends.
Judging by the endgame of that episode, I would hardly call Kashyk "redeeming" in any sense of the word. More like a manipulative prick.

I'd agree that Janeway probably held out some hope that he was really good beneath all that Inspector leather, but she still kept her guard up.
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Old September 30 2012, 07:10 AM   #99
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Re: Kate Mulgrew's decision to not have a romance

I meant he presented himself as sorry etc.. to her. Not that it turned out that way. I'm talking about her present tense (during the ongoing episode, not the ending) attraction.
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Old September 30 2012, 07:14 AM   #100
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Re: Kate Mulgrew's decision to not have a romance

teacake wrote: View Post
I meant he presented himself as sorry etc.. to her. Not that it turned out that way. I'm talking about her present tense (during the ongoing episode, not the ending) attraction.
Ah, my bad. During the episode, yes, absolute tension.

Unfortunately, that all fizzled out at the end...
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Old September 30 2012, 07:31 AM   #101
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Re: Kate Mulgrew's decision to not have a romance

And she would not have been sexually attracted to him without it potentially being true that he was seeking redemption. If he had been "screw those telepaths, I'll do what I want!" the whole episode AND spent just as much time with her I do not think there would have been any attraction. How could there be? Half the attraction was about his need to make things right and her ability to help him with that. The other half, probably the smarts and the looks. But just the smarts and the looks wouldn't have lit any fires.
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Last edited by teacake; September 30 2012 at 07:48 AM.
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Old September 30 2012, 07:46 AM   #102
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Re: Kate Mulgrew's decision to not have a romance

Newkirk strangled Klink with his shoe laces in the last episode of Hogans Heroes.

What attracted Kathryn was that he made it clear that she was so amazing that he was willing to go against his corrupt government finally because she inspired him to be a better man by her example and a fantastic woman.

how hot would the Devore inspector have had to have been for Janeway to hand over her telepathic crew just so that he might kiss her a little.

Love is about sacrifice.

Lust is about possession.

Lying is about survival.
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Old September 30 2012, 07:55 AM   #103
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Re: Kate Mulgrew's decision to not have a romance

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post

how hot would the Devore inspector have had to have been for Janeway to hand over her telepathic crew just so that he might kiss her a little.
I think that question should read "how desperate would Janeway have had to have been.."

And of course she wouldn't have been because that would make her a sex starved narcissistic vampire. When she did want it to be all about her and all about the sex she took it to the holodeck and the only thing she handed over was her dignity.
Love is about sacrifice.

Lust is about possession.

Lying is about survival.
And Starfleet is about.. uhh.. well something noble that Janeway believes in like other people believe in God.

She did not love Kashyk and she was not willing to sacrifice anything.

She used her own lust for Kashyk to make sure she took a bit of possession of him as a means to save her crew.

And she lied her ass off for survival.
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Old September 30 2012, 08:21 AM   #104
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Re: Kate Mulgrew's decision to not have a romance

My position is she had no lust or love and she was lying completely.

It's possible that she forgot that she was lying after spending up all night trying to crack that wormhole, but one cup of coffee is all she should have needed to fix that.
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Old September 30 2012, 08:23 AM   #105
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Re: Kate Mulgrew's decision to not have a romance

If this is true about Janeway, then even in the advanced 24th century, nothing has changed.

Janeway had the hots for this guy--even the subject matter wasn't enough to put her off.

Diana Troi boinked (I mean really boinked ) another human who used his Betazed powers to manipulate others in negotiations. When she found out the truth, and she rejected him, but at first--it was all looks and power.

Janeway saw the worse, in the beginning before she saw the potential, so I would say his looks and charm made it easier for her to believe.

Janeway is human, but wer'e not used too seeing--particualry a woman captain--act like a female with desire and needs.

So the idea of Janeway falling for this guy, and maybe because a lot of this was looks and charm, a little shocking.

Would she had fallen for him if he looked like a Pakled?

I don't think someone with Janeway's wits would have fallen for it.
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