Spock & Spock Prime: Was the Torch Successfully Passed?

[Delsaber]

Temis the Vorta wrote:

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And if there's one character in all fiction that I would say was unrecastable, it's Spock. The only noticeable difference is the voice - Quinto's isn't as deep.

This is my one niggling factor as well. Quinto's great, but he probably won't be on everyone's shortlist for documentary narration any time soon. Maybe that'll improve with age.

I'm that guy who still plays Civilization IV just for Nimoy's voice work.

[teacake]

Oh but HEY NuSpock is young, he's still going through the 20 year long Vulcan puberty. His voice will get deeper.

[Spock/Uhura Fan]

Delsaber wrote:

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This is my one niggling factor as well. Quinto's great, but he probably won't be on everyone's shortlist for documentary narration any time soon. Maybe that'll improve with age.

I'm that guy who still plays Civilization IV just for Nimoy's voice work.

He's on my short list. I think his voice will get a little bit deeper as he gets older, but for the most part, it is what it is.

[R. Star]

I dunno, it just doesn't feel like the same character from TOS and the movies. Certainly Spock never struck me as an emo who roid rages every time a Yo mama joke gets told as he was portrayed in the movie. The other half of the time he was almost cocky which struck me as uncharacteristic too.

I found have found the Quinto Spock an interesting character in his own rights if he was playing someone else, but as Spock he just seems a watered down version at best.

[sonak]

Leonard Nimoy as Spock Prime was one of the best parts of Star Trek XI. I'd say the torch passing was effective.

[R. Star]

It really just portrayed the contrast between the two to me... the devastated look on Nimoy's face as Vulcan is destroyed versus Qunito's Spock screaming in rage as he strangles Kirk... it just didn't seem the same character to me.

[BillJ]

R. Star wrote:

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It really just portrayed the contrast between the two to me... the devastated look on Nimoy's face as Vulcan is destroyed versus Qunito's Spock screaming in rage as he strangles Kirk... it just didn't seem the same character to me.

Well there was a 130 year age gap there. I know 20 year old BillJ and the 40 year old one are two distinct people.

[R. Star]

BillJ wrote:

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Well there was a 130 year age gap there. I know 20 year old BillJ and the 40 year old one are two distinct people.

I just said it illustrated the difference between the two characters to have them both on screen together. ST09 and TOS weren't a 130 years apart in their years set. It would be what? 10 years at best. You can defend the differences between Shatner and Pike's versions of Kirk given the daddy issues growing up(even though dad was so important prime Kirk never once mentioned him), but by all accounts both Spocks should have had the same childhood.

20 year old R. Star and 30 year old R. Star while not exactly the same are still going to have the same core characteristics.

[Spock/Uhura Fan]

R. Star wrote:

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It really just portrayed the contrast between the two to me... the devastated look on Nimoy's face as Vulcan is destroyed versus Qunito's Spock screaming in rage as he strangles Kirk... it just didn't seem the same character to me.

And they are not exactly the same, but what they are reacting to is not exactly the same either. One Spock is reacting to the destruction of Vulcan that was caused, in part, by some of his actions, or inactions as it is. Since Nero chased him into the black hole he was pulled into, he literally brought him there to destroy a world in a reality that had nothing to do with what went down in his own. The other Spock is reacting to some crazed villain out of "nowhere" that just comes along and destroys everything, taking his mother along with. He's also reacting to a cheating, insubordinate, purposefully obnoxious and taunting Kirk right after all of that happened. I know that TOS Spock had it together and all, but you really can't say for sure how he would have responded if the tables had been turned. He probably would have lost it a little too, but then Kirk would have been supportive of him and not an ass, so, there might be your difference. All in all, it was for the good, though.

R. Star wrote:

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I just said it illustrated the difference between the two characters to have them both on screen together. ST09 and TOS weren't a 130 years apart in their years set. It would be what? 10 years at best. You can defend the differences between Shatner and Pike's versions of Kirk given the daddy issues growing up(even though dad was so important prime Kirk never once mentioned him), but by all accounts both Spocks should have had the same childhood.

20 year old R. Star and 30 year old R. Star while not exactly the same are still going to have the same core characteristics.

Yes, but you are comparing yourself to yourself in the same timeline; that's not the case with this film. Also, I think they do have some of the same core characteristics, but we didn't get to see them as much as I suspect we will because of the series of events were so out of the ordinary. TOS was about meeting strange new worlds, yes, but this movie was about twisting and mixing things into what became a strange new reality for a while. My guess is things will simmer down on that front so that the mission of exploration and possibly encountering threats indigenous to this new reality will take center stage in the next film.

R. Star wrote:

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I dunno, it just doesn't feel like the same character from TOS and the movies. Certainly Spock never struck me as an emo who roid rages every time a Yo mama joke gets told as he was portrayed in the movie. The other half of the time he was almost cocky which struck me as uncharacteristic too.

I found have found the Quinto Spock an interesting character in his own rights if he was playing someone else, but as Spock he just seems a watered down version at best.

It wasn't "every time" a "Yo mamma joke" was told, just the 35th time. And even then, you were dealing with a little boy who was being bullied by the Vulcan equivalent of a gang of thugs. Even a Vulcan can only take so much.

I don't think he was cocky, just slightly irritated with Kirk and his methods, which included a blatant disregard for authority and rules. Nimoy's Spock never had to deal with that to my knowledge. From what I can tell, TOS didn't bring up some of these scenarios for a true comparison, FWIW.

[R. Star]

^

First of all NuSpock and Spock Prime by all accounts should have lived nearly the same lives up until Kirk's academy days. There's no reason the Kelvin's destruction is going to effect his childhood and birth on Vulcan at all. Kirk definitely has a different childhood, the whole car theft thing seeming to be a daddy issue, but both Spocks grew up on Vulcan and by all accounts had similar careers until they met Kirk. So the new timeline really shouldn't have effected Spock's core behavior that much.

As I said, I was citing that example of how the two different characters demonstrate emotion as a relevant contrast being the occur 15 minutes apart in the movie. They're not the same situation, but can you honestly picture Nimoy's Spock raging like an emo teen like that? Or that cocky smirk and open irritation? They're not that far moved apart. It took NuKirk all of ten seconds to provoke Spock into attacking him. In TOS McCoy was baiting Spock for the whole series and never got a rise out of him.

As I said, if Quinto's potrayal of a half Vulcan was a different character, he would be interesting and compelling. But by all accounts he just doesn't act like Spock did in TOS. So I'm not really sold on the new character. If you enjoy him, that's your privilege but I really think it just takes something away from the original by pretending to be genuine when it isn't.

[BillJ]

Except Spock is nearly ten years younger in the film than he was in TOS. Remember the smiling, loud Spock from the pilots?

And he was baited by into an emotional response by McCoy in All Our Yesterdays.

Spock evolved as a character as TOS ran, he wasn't the stoic, coldly logical character early on.

[Admiral_Sisko]

BillJ wrote:

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And he was baited by into an emotional response by McCoy in All Our Yesterdays.

Which is what I think Abrams was going for, as the scenes in which Spock tries to strangle McCoy and Kirk are similar.

[FarStrider]

R. Star wrote:

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^

First of all NuSpock and Spock Prime by all accounts should have lived nearly the same lives up until Kirk's academy days. There's no reason the Kelvin's destruction is going to effect his childhood and birth on Vulcan at all. Kirk definitely has a different childhood, the whole car theft thing seeming to be a daddy issue, but both Spocks grew up on Vulcan and by all accounts had similar careers until they met Kirk. So the new timeline really shouldn't have effected Spock's core behavior that much.

You can't actually say that. NuSpock doesn't have the same career that old Spock had in TOS. Because of the destruction of the Kelvin, the Enterprise itself was built about 15 years later. . . thus, Spock and Pike (and Number One and Colt and Dr. Piper) didn't have 11 years of adventures; so the Spock in the new timeline didn't necessarily have the same influences while he was in the Academy, or afterward. . . for instance, he met Uhura 10 years earlier in the new timeline. . plus, we don't know exactly how the destruction of the Kelvin changed other things in the Federation and Starfleet (politics, diplomacy. . . was there a war/was Sarek not as home as much?), so no one's life in the new universe after that point was exactly the same.

R. Star wrote:

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As I said, I was citing that example of how the two different characters demonstrate emotion as a relevant contrast being the occur 15 minutes apart in the movie. They're not the same situation, but can you honestly picture Nimoy's Spock raging like an emo teen like that?

What exactly does "emo" mean? If Nimoy's Spock had been on the ground while his planet died beneath his feet, and his connections to the billions of Vulcans snapped at that same time, plus watching as his mother, who was one second from being saved, almost literally slips from his fingers tips, you don't think he would act "emo" later, when his already fragile grasp on his emotions gets challenged? Especially about his MOTHER -- whom we know from TOS and TAS was the cause of his fights as a boy, and that he loved, but never told? As it is, Nimoy Spock is emotionally compromised because he blames himself for the destruction of Vulcan, but he is not as connected to this tragedy as new Spock is. . . Spock Prime's mother and father are already dead. . .he's not really connected mentally to the people on Vulcan in this new timeline. . . he's 130-something years older than NuSpock, has gone through Kohlinar, has died and been resurrected, has more experience being Vulcan and Human than new Spock. . . of course he is going to react differently.

R. Star wrote:

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Or that cocky smirk and open irritation? They're not that far moved apart. It took NuKirk all of ten seconds to provoke Spock into attacking him. In TOS McCoy was baiting Spock for the whole series and never got a rise out of him.

I don't know what Vulcans you were watching, but it sure wasn't the ones in Star Trek. . . almost the entire race was portrayed as arrogant, sure of their superiority, cocky and self-satisfied. . . even TOS Spock wasn't immune to that portrayal at times. It took Kirk "10 seconds" because after everything that happened on that day, Spock is barely hanging on to his control as it is, and Kirk luckily picked to one thing that was shown that Spock would lose his control over, his mother and his feelings for her.

R. Star wrote:

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As I said, if Quinto's potrayal of a half Vulcan was a different character, he would be interesting and compelling. But by all accounts he just doesn't act like Spock did in TOS. So I'm not really sold on the new character. If you enjoy him, that's your privilege but I really think it just takes something away from the original by pretending to be genuine when it isn't.

As BillJ said, Spock wasn't always the stoic, coldly logical character early in TOS, this Spock HASN'T led the same life as Spock Prime, and we never saw Spock under the emotional pressures he is under in ST09 in TOS. . .so really, you can't say how TOS Spock would react. . .


~FS

[teacake]

FarStrider wrote:

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As BillJ said, Spock wasn't always the stoic, coldly logical character early in TOS, this Spock HASN'T led the same life as Spock Prime, and we never saw Spock under the emotional pressures he is under in ST09 in TOS. . .so really, you can't say how TOS Spock would react. . .


~FS

Considering how utterly gutted he looked when he thought he'd killed Kirk I think snapping when his whole planet had blown up was expected.

[FarStrider]

teacake wrote:

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Considering how utterly gutted he looked when he thought he'd killed Kirk I think snapping when his whole planet had blown up was expected.

And let's not mention how HAPPY he was when it turned out that Kirk was alive. . .


~FS