O'Brien

[Mr_Homn]

i think another reason to make him enlisted was to make him more of an "everyman", which he was thought of by the writers on ds9

[Timo]

...Although in this particular case, this makes him stand out rather than blend in! As an Ensign, he would be a comfortable "bluecollar" nobody; as matters stand, he's almost a celebrity already just by virtue of his rank.

Timo Saloniemi

[Mr_Homn]

Timo wrote:

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...Although in this particular case, this makes him stand out rather than blend in! As an Ensign, he would be a comfortable "bluecollar" nobody; as matters stand, he's almost a celebrity already just by virtue of his rank.

Timo Saloniemi

true, but i meant in relation to the real world, since most military people are enlisted, not commisioned officers. (at least in the US military)

[Nick086]

It a shame they never show him giving orders to anyone under his rank not that I remember it been a while since I've seen the entire series.

[Timo]

He does have a couple of Bajoran underlings without the collar brass to suggest a commission or a high rating of other sort. Two of these are even plot-related characters, one turning out to be an assassin in "In the Hands of the Prophets".

Timo Saloniemi

[t_smitts]

Nick086 wrote:

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It a shame they never show him giving orders to anyone under his rank not that I remember it been a while since I've seen the entire series.

What about the guys in "Starship Down"?

[Distorted Humor]

The Chief even if they took a while to get his rank/rating correct shows a good idea of what a NCO does.

As the old joke goes, a Lt. is ordered by a commander to have a flagged raised by 8 am, he turns to his NCO and says "I need the flag raised by 8 am" and the NCO make sure it gets done.

also officers, mostly Jr. Officers (like a ensign or a Lt.) would be trained to listen to his NCO's, who will have years of experience in actually doing something, while the officers have years of schooling at the academy, but less time doing stuff.

Yes, a Jr officer can order O'Brian to do something, but a wise officer will concider what he has to say before giving out a order. Good examples of this is TNG Disaster where the NCO gives ideas to the officer, and in DS9 in Hippocratic Oath, where the NCO disobeys a order from a Lt. and if the officer wanted to, could put him to court martial.

[R. Star]

t_smitts wrote:

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What about the guys in "Starship Down"?

And "The Ship"

[MikeH92467]

I remember a documentary about the relationship between officers and NCO' s in the Marine Corps. Basically it boils down to what DH says: officers give orders and set policy, NCO's see that they are carried out. As far as the relationship in terms of young officers ordering NCO's about, it's a little more complicated than that. If you think about it, the young officers are seen as go-betweens for the senior officers who set the goals and objectives and the troops. Thus a sergeant isn't really giving up any dignity by following orders because he knows who's really giving them. On the other hand, a young officer who tries to cross the line between passing on what needs to be done and telling an NCO how to do it, is probably asking for a considerable amount of resentment and subtle contempt.

If the writers had really wanted to put O'Brien somewhere just outside the command structure box, they could have made him a warrant officer. Warrant ranks are traditionally issued on the basis of merit to deserving enlisted personnel. Compared to a regular commission they are career dead ends, since you can't make general or admiral on that line, but it is a way of giving the equivalent of commissioned officer's privilege and pay to people who otherwise would be stuck in the senior NCO ranks. Unfortunately the only person involved with any of the Trek franchises who probably understood that was GR and he didn't even want enlisted personnel...he figured Star Fleet was an elite organization and that anyone serving on a star ship would be a commissioned officer.

[Timo]

Well, if Starfleet doesn't pay its personnel anything, or even if it just doesn't pay its personnel in accordance with the amount of brass on their collars, the concept of warrant officers becomes rather meaningless.

All you really need is the doers and the deciders - and you need both in the "experienced" and "inexperienced" variety, so you can't just have one rank scale or career ladder where the top end decides for the bottom end. Starfleet might be egalitarian enough not to pay the deciders more than the doers simply because of silly historical ballast, but the organization might still see the need to give different types of insignia for the top deciders and the top doers, rather than have a Commander give orders to a fellow Commander to get that flag raised on that hill, or for a Master Sergeant to listen to orders from a fellow Master Sergeant on whether the flag needs to be raised, on which hill, when, and at what cost to men and equipment.

Although we have seen our share of Starfleet doers who hold a commission...

Timo Saloniemi

[MikeH92467]

The concept of Warrant Officers came from the Royal Navy where regular officers were from the upper class and ordinary seamen from the lower class. Eventually it dawned on someone that a lot of capable men were being buried in the enlisted ranks. It wouldn't do to have lower class types commanding ships, but the warrant concept at least gave the exceptionally talented enlisted types a chance at better privilege and pay. Making O'Brien a warrant officer would have easily solved the riddle of how he could have served as "Tactical Officer" on board another ship without being an Academy graduate. Of course, in the U.S. Navy the "Diving Officer" on submarines as I understand it is at least some of the time the Chief Enlisted man, known as "Chief of the Boat" or COB.

[Timo]

...We may also consider that the Rutledge may have been a ship no larger than the Voyager (as backstage sources associate her with the New Orleans class design that looks like a half-scale E-D). O'Brien's story from "Paradise" involves a large number of top officers beaming down at Setlik III, in classic Trek fashion, and being ambushed; perhaps the ship suffered debilitating casualties there, necessitating the temporary use of NCOs in positions normally calling for commissioned officers? And perhaps the Setlik III incident stranded the ship away from crew rotation opportunities for a while, despite apparently not immediately evolving into the full-blown Cardassian Wars?

Timo Saloniemi

[Distorted Humor]

Just as a note,

In a sub, the Chief of the Boat (COB) or on a surface vessel the Command Master Chief officer, while being NCOs, are generally the third most powerful/respected members on the Boat or ship. (Right after the Captain/commander and the XO) For example, if the Commander wants to bounce ideas off his command staff, the first person invited will be the XO, then it will be the senior NCO. (If your in the army, it would a rank of Sargent depending on what size unit it is.) While they do not have the academy background, many times they will have more years of experience then the Commissioned officer, and a much stronger idea of the technical issues.

A really good example of this is on the episode where the defiant is stuck in a gas giant fighting sub style with some other ships. Worf is his usual blunt self, and O'brien, who cannot order Worf to do anything, pulls him aside and gives him advise, which Worf listens to. This is a good example of a Senior NCO-Officer relationship.

Though the best example is most likely the TNG episode disaster, where troi of all people is the command officer, she knows she is out of her element, so she does the smart thing, and asks her senior NCO what are valid options, makes a command choice, and it is carried out.

As shown on TV, Starfleet is officer heavy and the officer does a lot of hands on work compared to the current miltary. then again, since Starfleet has a strong science and engineering backgrounds, and many of those would have extensive post secondary educations, perhaps it not a shock that they have a lot of officers.

[Timo]

Though the best example is most likely the TNG episode disaster, where troi of all people is the command officer, she knows she is out of her element, so she does the smart thing, and asks her senior NCO what are valid options, makes a command choice, and it is carried out.

It seems to go even beyond that, as O'Brien actually places Troi in command over various other commissioned officers in the scene, by being very quick to point out that Troi has the most pips in her collar. This despite other officers clearly being more experienced and more likely to actually be in the formal chain of command - chiefly, Ro Laren, whom O'Brien sees as trouble.

Clearly, the word of the Chief carries a lot of weight, even in officer-to-officer pissing contests.

Timo Saloniemi

[MacLeod]

Well in "Disaster" it was almost as if O'Brien was in command, as Troi generally decided to follow his advice rather than Ro's. But as Ro's was basically seperate the ship and leave the people in the stardrive to die, I can see why that idea didn't sit well.