Would the Neutral Zone have better without the 20th century characters

[horatio83]

davejames wrote:

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Yeah, but that always seemed a bit contrived to me. Picard has demonstrated plenty of times that he knows how to read and understand what the enemy is thinking.

Plus it wasn't exactly hard to figure out that the Romulans were fishing for information.

Yeah, the guy is basically a total moron (a business man who presumes that a company lasts three centuries is incompetent) who doesn't understand anything and then he is supposed to be at once cognitively quick? Not really believable.

[BillJ]

horatio83 wrote:

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Yeah, the guy is basically a total moron (a business man who presumes that a company lasts three centuries is incompetent) who doesn't understand anything and then he is supposed to be at once cognitively quick? Not really believable.

Or he was simply scared and trying to hang on to what he knew of his life. The episode points in that direction.

[horatio83]

True but then he is still the biggest moron of the three. The woman confronted her loss of family members and the entertainer thought ahead. Mr. Business Guy is either utterly incompetent or able to tell himself a pretty big lie, that the average lifetime of companies is measured in years or decades but not centuries.

[Anwar]

Well, he was undergoing huge future shock. If we'd seen him again likely he'd be better adjusted. If he was adjusted already he couldn't be as well contrasted with the other two 20th Century folks.

As for how the TNG crew reacted to them...they acted pretty much the same way normal 20th century people would react to finding time-lost survivors of the 15th Century. We're always going to think we're doing things better than our ancestors did, that's just our nature.

[Jeyl]

Timo wrote:

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At the time of the adventure, neither side has a clue, so there is no point in cooperating. Thus, Tebok's "Only if it's convenient and appropriate at the time": the time is not now.

How does that make any sense? Why wouldn't NOW be the better time? The two factions are dealing with a threat unknown to them that could still be around and maybe heading towards it's next target, and the Romulans decide to shrug it off just so they can show the Federation who's boss? And if the time isn't appropriate, why not just tell Picard that? What was there to gain by agreeing to cooperate, decide not to cooperate, declare "We... are back" and than leave?

For being the introduction to the Romulans, having them do nothing except waste everyone's time is not the most intimidating move to make.

[Jeyl]

Anwar wrote:

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As for how the TNG crew reacted to them...they acted pretty much the same way normal 20th century people would react to finding time-lost survivors of the 15th Century. We're always going to think we're doing things better than our ancestors did, that's just our nature.

That would have made the b-plot for the 20th Century humans more dynamic, but unfortunately that was not the intent of the episode. Maurice Hurley pretty much just wake up, act the same way they did from the 20th century, and all Picard does in the end is tell them to grow up.

[T'Girl]

horatio83 wrote:

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Yeah, the guy is basically a total moron (a business man who presumes that a company lasts three centuries is incompetent) who doesn't understand anything ...

Ralph Offenhouse's occupation was as a financier. The oldest bank in the world currently is the Italian Banca Monte dei Paschi di Siena, which is 540 years old. The oldest stock brokerage, Antwerp Bourse, is 552 years. Some banks in America are over two centuries old. So for Ralph to find himself 370 years in the future, it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibilities (al least in his own mind) that his financial institution would still exist is some form.

... and then he is supposed to be at once cognitively quick? Not really believable

Ralph likely got where he was prior to his death by being good at reading people and quickly evaluating situations.

BillJ wrote:

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Or he was simply scared and trying to hang on to what he knew of his life. The episode points in that direction.

Ralph did say that it was never about money and possessions, it was to being in control of his own life, his destiny, his fate. He probably was scared.

[Ghrakh]

horatio83 wrote:

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Yeah, the guy is basically a total moron (a business man who presumes that a company lasts three centuries is incompetent) who doesn't understand anything and then he is supposed to be at once cognitively quick? Not really believable.

Yeah, the guy should have watched star trek first so he'd have a good idea of what the future would be like.

[EmperorTiberius]

It's one of my favorite episodes. The humans are the interesting part, not the Romulans.

[horatio83]

T'Girl wrote:

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Ralph Offenhouse's occupation was as a financier. The oldest bank in the world currently is the Italian Banca Monte dei Paschi di Siena, which is 540 years old. The oldest stock brokerage, Antwerp Bourse, is 552 years. Some banks in America are over two centuries old. So for Ralph to find himself 370 years in the future, it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibilities (al least in his own mind) that his financial institution would still exist is some form.

Ralph likely got where he was prior to his death by being good at reading people and quickly evaluating situations.

Ralph did say that it was never about money and possessions, it was to being in control of his own life, his destiny, his fate. He probably was scared.

The guy talked about his stocks, not about his house bank. The average lifespan of a company is far below a hundred years and as he lacked this knowledge he was plain incompetent. I wouldn't entrust one cent to such an utter moron.

[BillJ]

horatio83 wrote:

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The guy talked about his stocks, not about his house bank. The average lifespan of a company is far below a hundred years and as he lacked this knowledge he was plain incompetent. I wouldn't entrust one cent to such an utter moron.

Just because a company name doesn't last several centuries doesn't mean the company can't continue on in differing forms. Or else they wouldn't have been talking about Fleet Bank being sued for slavery reparations several years back.

You don't like the episode, which is fine. But your attempts to pick Offenhouse behavior apart have totally failed.

[horatio83]

I like the episode very much and merely pointed out the utter incompetence of this "business man".
I understand that people have this mythical idea about companies lasting forever but, well, it is just a myth. Excusable in the case of an uneducated John Doe, inexcusable in the case of a guy who prides himself in being a successful investor.

[BillJ]

horatio83 wrote:

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I like the episode very much and merely pointed out the utter incompetence of this "business man".
I understand that people have this mythical idea about companies lasting forever but, well, it is just a myth. Excusable in the case of an uneducated John Doe, inexcusable in the case of a guy who prides himself in being a successful investor.

As long as he lays out a line of succession for his affairs, there's no reason his personal wealth wouldn't continue to grow while he was incapacitated.

You seem to pick on him because he's out of the loop. He has no historical context in which to evaluate his situation. He didn't know of cryonics being a fad and that him and the other two were the only ones to be revived. He has no way of knowing that a nuclear conflict would wipe out six hundred-million people and shattered the economy.

We never once see these people offered someone who could give them a history refresher. They're shown how to work the food slot and left in a room. They don't even show them how to work a computer station so they can find things out on their own.

Offenhouse was simply flying blind and without information assumed things continued on the course he thought they would.

[BillJ]

Here's a law firm that can trace its roots to the mid-sixteenth century...

http://www.ts-p.co.uk/about-us/our-history

[Jonas Grumby]

horatio83 wrote:

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I understand that people have this mythical idea about companies lasting forever but, well, it is just a myth. Excusable in the case of an uneducated John Doe, inexcusable in the case of a guy who prides himself in being a successful investor.

Two posters now, T'Girl and BillJ, have shown you examples of real life institutions that have lasted for multiple centuries. Also, are you unaware that a person's financial holdings do not cease to exist just because his bank closes its doors?