RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,711
Posts: 5,431,935
Members: 24,834
Currently online: 515
Newest member: fanficfan


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 27 2012, 09:12 AM   #316
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: My first voyage with Voyager

It's odd that Janeway didn't just turn off or abridge his ethical subroutines so that that light bulb with his lofty delusions of grandeur didn't retain such a piss poor excuse to be such a wussy.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2012, 10:32 AM   #317
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: My first voyage with Voyager

She did not murder him, the way stabbing him to death would be murder.

If Tuvix can claim that Neelix and Tuvok are alive in him then Neelix and Tuvok can claim once they have been parsed into their separate existences Tuvix is alive in them.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2012, 10:51 AM   #318
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: My first voyage with Voyager

If she had used a needle instead of a hypospray, then he would have been stabbed to death.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2012, 10:55 AM   #319
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: My first voyage with Voyager

I thought it a tragic amalgamation of two people against their will that was fixed by the wonders of science.

How do you know Neelix and Tuvok weren't inside screaming silent screams to get out?
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2012, 11:38 AM   #320
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: My first voyage with Voyager

A nice colorful metaphor, but it doesn't change the facts. Regardless of how Tuvix came into being, he was alive, he was conscious and he was sentient. Janeway is captain, she's not god. She has no right to decide who lives and dies. Tuvix had as much right to be alive as anyone else on that ship. Janeway didn't respect that right and decided she'd rather have her friends back. She performed the procedure personally, so yeah.. she stuck that proverbial knife in him.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2012, 11:51 AM   #321
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: My first voyage with Voyager

But.. how do you know?

What if there had been a scene at the end of the episode where Neelix and Tuvok spoke of their horror of being trapped and controlled by a being who was both them and something not-them? Would you feel differently about it?
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2012, 12:06 PM   #322
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: My first voyage with Voyager

R. Star wrote: View Post
A nice colorful metaphor, but it doesn't change the facts. Regardless of how Tuvix came into being, he was alive, he was conscious and he was sentient. Janeway is captain, she's not god. She has no right to decide who lives and dies. Tuvix had as much right to be alive as anyone else on that ship. Janeway didn't respect that right and decided she'd rather have her friends back. She performed the procedure personally, so yeah.. she stuck that proverbial knife in him.
Actually as the Captain, there are several legal means and reasons for by which she could call for the execution or sacrifice of her crew... But this would be a significantly illegal one since Neelix wasn't a member of Starfleet which limits the ramifications of disobeying her legal orders and most definitely her illegal orders.



Then of course there was the 2 and a half minutes in which Tuvok was a Romulan in Meld who was ADAMANT that he did not consider he could stand life as a wussy if he was put back inside that Vulcan shaped box again.

The Doctor had no problem with neutering that version of Tuvok.

None whatsoever.

Janeway let a definition of her personality die to kill that clown.

B'Elanna took a hydrospanner to a missile who thought that it were she.

What about when B'Elanna met herself and died, and then was forced to get dosed with a hunk of Klingon DNA or die from the lack of it inside her until the new person was almost indistinguishable from the original?
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2012, 03:27 PM   #323
Brit
Captain
 
Brit's Avatar
 
Location: Texas
Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Here we go again, it's the so called "pro-lifer" against the pro-abortionists arguments. There will never be a common ground. It's the episode that those who are inclined to hate Janeway give for their justification. But the honest truth is the ending could have been no other way.

Tim Russ and Ethan Phillips had contracts, Kenneth Biller did not. The story could only go one way.
__________________
"My name is Matai Shang and I do not exist, indeed I work very hard at it."

Avatar by Me
Brit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2012, 04:03 PM   #324
Qutluch
Commander
 
Qutluch's Avatar
 
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Re: My first voyage with Voyager

R. Star wrote: View Post
Janeway had no right to kill him against his will in this one. Tuvix was exactly right that it was an execution. It's the moral equivalent of killing Chakotay against his will and harvesting his organs to save the lives Kim and Paris who would otherwise die. Really it's worse, given Janeway doesn't even truely respect his life and sentience or is just clearly blinded by her favoritism towards Tuvok and Neelix. She even criticizes him for having Kes speak on his behalf? Yes begging not to be murdered by all means available is clearly a deplorable act.

Does that make Tuvix a coward for not sacrificing himself? Sure, it does. Is cowardice a capital crime? I don't think so. Who can really say with any amount of conviction that they'd sacrifice their life no question asked to save two others? You don't really know until you're in that situation I'd imagine.

Yeah, Janeway's hypocrisy in this one is self-evident. Especially given some of her future actions too. But for one in the past, as not to spoil things for you and because there are so many, doesn't this episode just seem funny when you compare it to Janeway's condescending attitude towards the Viidians in Phage? How she sternly lectures them for stealing Neelix's lungs, and that she's so much better than them for not killing that guy to save Neelix's life? Hypocrite.

Tuvix was a likeable character and the episode was beautifully done. But seriously, there's just no getting around the fact that Janeway murdered him. She can preach all about how it was to save two lives, but that's an excuse and doesn't make it right. She played favorites and played god and had no moral problem doing so. Even the freaking EMH refused to do it because it violated his ethical programing.
Your post basically sums up the conversation I had with my husband this morning. While, I think the episode was well-done I am less and less impressed with it. Why make Janeway into a killer? She seems to have a moral superiorty over everyone, but in the end she killed a man to benefit her own needs and emotions.
__________________
"I AM NOT A MERRY MAN!" ~ Lt. Worf
Qutluch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2012, 04:05 PM   #325
Qutluch
Commander
 
Qutluch's Avatar
 
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
A nice colorful metaphor, but it doesn't change the facts. Regardless of how Tuvix came into being, he was alive, he was conscious and he was sentient. Janeway is captain, she's not god. She has no right to decide who lives and dies. Tuvix had as much right to be alive as anyone else on that ship. Janeway didn't respect that right and decided she'd rather have her friends back. She performed the procedure personally, so yeah.. she stuck that proverbial knife in him.
Actually as the Captain, there are several legal means and reasons for by which she could call for the execution or sacrifice of her crew... But this would be a significantly illegal one since Neelix wasn't a member of Starfleet which limits the ramifications of disobeying her legal orders and most definitely her illegal orders.



Then of course there was the 2 and a half minutes in which Tuvok was a Romulan in Meld who was ADAMANT that he did not consider he could stand life as a wussy if he was put back inside that Vulcan shaped box again.

The Doctor had no problem with neutering that version of Tuvok.

None whatsoever.

Janeway let a definition of her personality die to kill that clown.

B'Elanna took a hydrospanner to a missile who thought that it were she.

What about when B'Elanna met herself and died, and then was forced to get dosed with a hunk of Klingon DNA or die from the lack of it inside her until the new person was almost indistinguishable from the original?
Thanks for using a spoiler alert!
__________________
"I AM NOT A MERRY MAN!" ~ Lt. Worf
Qutluch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2012, 04:23 PM   #326
teya
Vice Admiral
 
teya's Avatar
 
Location: 2 mi S of Capt Braxton's shopping cart
Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Qutluch wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Janeway had no right to kill him against his will in this one. Tuvix was exactly right that it was an execution. It's the moral equivalent of killing Chakotay against his will and harvesting his organs to save the lives Kim and Paris who would otherwise die. Really it's worse, given Janeway doesn't even truely respect his life and sentience or is just clearly blinded by her favoritism towards Tuvok and Neelix. She even criticizes him for having Kes speak on his behalf? Yes begging not to be murdered by all means available is clearly a deplorable act.

Does that make Tuvix a coward for not sacrificing himself? Sure, it does. Is cowardice a capital crime? I don't think so. Who can really say with any amount of conviction that they'd sacrifice their life no question asked to save two others? You don't really know until you're in that situation I'd imagine.

Yeah, Janeway's hypocrisy in this one is self-evident. Especially given some of her future actions too. But for one in the past, as not to spoil things for you and because there are so many, doesn't this episode just seem funny when you compare it to Janeway's condescending attitude towards the Viidians in Phage? How she sternly lectures them for stealing Neelix's lungs, and that she's so much better than them for not killing that guy to save Neelix's life? Hypocrite.

Tuvix was a likeable character and the episode was beautifully done. But seriously, there's just no getting around the fact that Janeway murdered him. She can preach all about how it was to save two lives, but that's an excuse and doesn't make it right. She played favorites and played god and had no moral problem doing so. Even the freaking EMH refused to do it because it violated his ethical programing.
Your post basically sums up the conversation I had with my husband this morning. While, I think the episode was well-done I am less and less impressed with it. Why make Janeway into a killer? She seems to have a moral superiorty over everyone, but in the end she killed a man to benefit her own needs and emotions.
Why make Janeway into a killer? Because she's human and flawed.

That's what makes her interesting.
__________________
Akoochimoya, my indigenous ass.
teya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2012, 05:07 PM   #327
Qutluch
Commander
 
Qutluch's Avatar
 
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Re: My first voyage with Voyager

She is interesting because she is a killer?
__________________
"I AM NOT A MERRY MAN!" ~ Lt. Worf
Qutluch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2012, 05:25 PM   #328
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: My first voyage with Voyager

What if Tuvok and Neelix were "screaming inside" to get out? They weren't, unless you think Tuvix just lied. Being he was honest enough to brand himself a coward, I doubt he'd have failed to mention it at the beginning. He clearly stated there was no multiple personality disorder and that he just had both of their memories.

Sure there are places where the captain might have to order a crewman to sacrifice himself for the good of the ship. This isn't one of them. To say this was one of them is blatantly an insult to anyone who might sacrifice themselves. If Tuvix -volunteered- for this you could call that a sacrifice as it would be his to make.

As for this decision making Janeway "interesting" and more human? What the heck? She's the main protagonist of the series and a Starfleet captain. Could you actually picture Picard or Kirk murdering a member of their crew against their will? Gul Dukat was an interesting character, but a good guy that does not make him.

You can justify her actions all you want, that's all it is, a justification for murder and a very hallow one. Janeway is the captain, she's not god. Frankly it was arrogance of the first order for her to even presume this was her choice to make. To say nothing of lacking morality, though this is hardly the only morally lacking choice she makes.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2012, 05:57 PM   #329
teya
Vice Admiral
 
teya's Avatar
 
Location: 2 mi S of Capt Braxton's shopping cart
Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Qutluch wrote: View Post
She is interesting because she is a killer?
She's interesting because she's flawed. Like all humans are.

Look (and this goes for the next poster also), I've been one of the strongest critics of Janeway's actions in this episode over the years. She was wrong. Absolutely wrong. Tuvix was a living, breathing sentient being and Tuvok & Neelix's existences ended when they essentially died in a transporter accident. Tuvix did nothing that caused their demise & could not be held responsible for their deaths.

That it appeared Janeway was swayed by Kes's emotional appeal makes it even worse, in my eyes.

But I want the captain to make mistakes sometimes. I don't like perfect heroes.
__________________
Akoochimoya, my indigenous ass.
teya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27 2012, 06:16 PM   #330
Qutluch
Commander
 
Qutluch's Avatar
 
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Re: My first voyage with Voyager

I think this episode had the potential to be one of the great ones if Tuvix made it his own decision in the end, or it would have made the moral-issue debate more interesting if Neelix and Tuvok made some emotional thank you to Janeway for saving them in the end. I like the premise of the episode and it was extremely well-acted, but I think the writers missed an opportunity in the ending, but then again, maybe they wanted us to debate this episode from one end of eternity to the next. Was there every an interview that talked about the writers intent for this episode?
__________________
"I AM NOT A MERRY MAN!" ~ Lt. Worf
Qutluch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:05 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.