Did Kirk captain any ship before Enterprise?

[Timewalker]

Josan wrote:

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In "Court Martial", it said Ensign Kirk logged Finney's mistake while serving on the USS Republic. The Farragut, when he was a Lieutenant, was mentioned in "Obsession".

Thanks; I'd forgotten about the events in "Court Martial."

tighr wrote:

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Every officer under Picard was shown to be unbelievably talented, and if their goals were Captaincy, they would have all been plucked. Instead, you've got characters like Riker who remains at the Commander rank for 15 years, or Data who remains at LtCmdr rank for nearly 20. La Forge is a quick-starter who is promoted to Lt Cmdr in 9 years, but remains at that rank for at least the next 14 years (canonically, at least).

All of these characters who ascend to a certain rank and then stay put are essentially roadblocks in the careers of young officers who hope to rise rapidly.

Perhaps they are all related to Harry Kim.

Actually, I think Riker took a look around to see how many Captains were being killed in action and decided he'd rather stay put, thankyouverymuch.

Something nobody has mentioned yet: Kirk participated in a ground assignment among Tyree's people some years before he took command of the Enterprise. Which ships was he between at the time? Or was this an extended landing party assignment? It's been ages since I've seen the episode, and just can't remember.

Also: Kirk states in "The Deadly Years" that he is 34 years old. Was this in the 2nd or 3rd season?

[Warped9]

Dukhat wrote:

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Regardless of what The Making of Star Trek says, I'm of the opinion that Kirk only commanded the Enterprise. Dehner's comment really doesn't mean anything if it's just stating what Kirk wanted, not specifically what he got. And of course, WNMHGB being the pilot, premises could have been changed just like Kirk's middle initial was.

Sorry, but your opinion is irrelevant. It's what the evidence supports that matters.

[Dukhat]

Warped9 wrote:

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Sorry, but your opinion is irrelevant. It's what the evidence supports that matters.

Don't tell me my opinion is irrelevant. Your "evidence" is in a book, not in the show, regardless of what that book was meant to represent.

Of course, you are welcome to your own opinion on the matter just as much as I am.

[The Wormhole]

I'll have to go with the belief that Kirk did have a command before the Enterprise, simply because it enriches the character's backstory.

But if you were to go strictly with spoken dialogue, than the only captain in all the Trek shows confirmed to have a command before their series is Picard. And even he has a ten year gap between commands. How weird is that?

[Nerys Myk]

Was Janeway the CO of the USS Billings?

[Christopher]

Dukhat wrote:

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Don't tell me my opinion is irrelevant. Your "evidence" is in a book, not in the show, regardless of what that book was meant to represent.

The evidence is in the show -- Dehner's line about Kirk's first command, which is most likely a reference to an earlier ship. It's not very strong evidence, no, but it's the only actual evidence we have either way. So there's a little evidence that he did have a former command and absolutely no evidence that he didn't. And common sense also comes down on the side that he did have a former command.

The Wormhole wrote:

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But if you were to go strictly with spoken dialogue, than the only captain in all the Trek shows confirmed to have a command before their series is Picard. And even he has a ten year gap between commands. How weird is that?

No, Janeway was also confirmed to have at least one prior command. In "Revulsion," at Tuvok's promotion ceremony, she said, "The first time I met Tuvok he dressed me down in front of three Starfleet admirals for failing to observe proper tactical procedures during my first command." (Thus canonizing a bit of backstory which Jeri Taylor had established in her Janeway biography novel Mosaic.)

Nerys Myk wrote:

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Was Janeway the CO of the USS Billings?

Tuvok said in "Night" that she was "a commander on the USS Billings," which suggests she was a first officer of commander rank. If he'd meant she was the CO, he most likely would've said "the commander of the USS Billings" instead.

[Warped9]

Dukhat wrote:

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Don't tell me my opinion is irrelevant. Your "evidence" is in a book, not in the show, regardless of what that book was meant to represent.

Of course, you are welcome to your own opinion on the matter just as much as I am.

My evidence is the damned original Writer's Guide which is supported by a spoken reference onscreen. That's worth a helluva lot more than your opinion. And the Writer's Guide is Gene Roddenberry's intent which also carries more weight than your opinion. And I reiterate that these two bits of evidence were never contradicted at any time later.

[Dukhat]

Warped9 wrote:

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My evidence is the damned original Writer's Guide which is supported by a spoken reference onscreen. That's worth a helluva lot more than your opinion. And the Writer's Guide is Gene Roddenberry's intent which also carries more weight than your opinion. And I reiterate that these two bits of evidence were never contradicted at any time later.

I don't give a crap what the writer's guide said, I don't give a crap about Roddenberry's intentions, and IMHO Dehner's line is too vague to provide irrefutable proof. But I'm sure you'll have something snarky to say about my opinion about that, so I will gracefully end this discussion with you.

[Warped9]

Dukhat wrote:

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I don't give a crap what the writer's guide said, I don't give a crap about Roddenberry's intentions, and IMHO Dehner's line is too vague to provide irrefutable proof. But I'm sure you'll have something snarky to say about my opinion about that, so I will gracefully end this discussion with you.

I have evidence right from the source. You have wishful thinking. From this I deduce that this conversation is over because only one of us has anything of substance to contribute and support their position. And in case that isn't clear: wishful thinking isn't a contribution of substance.

[Christopher]

Again, nobody said anything about "irrefutable proof." We're just talking about evidence. There is one piece of weak evidence that Kirk had a prior command, and absolutely nothing to suggest he didn't. So that tips the scales at least slightly toward "yes." Even a little evidence outweighs zero evidence -- especially when there's no way of gathering any further canonical evidence that might alter the balance.

And we are talking about something entirely fictional here, after all. It's all completely abstract, not really important in any way, and not worth getting personal over. So maybe some deep breaths are in order at this point.

[Warped9]

Christopher wrote:

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Again, nobody said anything about "irrefutable proof." We're just talking about evidence. There is one piece of weak evidence that Kirk had a prior command, and absolutely nothing to suggest he didn't. So that tips the scales at least slightly toward "yes." Even a little evidence outweighs zero evidence -- especially when there's no way of gathering any further canonical evidence that might alter the balance.

Exactly.

[T'Bonz]

Christopher wrote:

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And we are talking about something entirely fictional here, after all. It's all completely abstract, not really important in any way, and not worth getting personal over. So maybe some deep breaths are in order at this point.

Pretty much what I would have said, had I got here early enough.

[Tiberius]

Christopher wrote:

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What Dehner said to Kirk was, "Gary told me that you've been friends since he joined the service, that you asked for him aboard your first command." I think that would be a strange choice of words if she were referring to the ship Kirk was currently commanding; in that case she would've been far more likely to say "you asked for him aboard this ship."

Not really. Kirk, before he was given the Enterprise, could have made it clear to the brass that he wanted Cary with him on his first command.

Or it could have been that when he found out that Starfleet was going to make him a captain and give him a ship, he said he wanted Mitchell along. And since he didn't know the name of the ship yet, he could only refer to it as his first command.

And the whole point of her statement is to call attention to how long Kirk and Mitchell have been close, so it's unlikely that "first command" is recent. But we know Kirk can't have been in command of the ship for too long prior to "Where No Man," given what we know about how long Spock served under Pike and other timeline factors.

Given how young Kirk is, it seems to me that the line is to show that they've been friends non-stop since the academy. They would have had a long history serving together and being friends since then without Kirk commanding.

So IMHO it's very, very improbable that Dehner is referring to the Enterprise itself when she says "your first command." She just would not have chosen her words that way if that had been her intention. By far the most probable interpretation is that, yes, Kirk commanded another ship before the Enterprise.

She may have been quoting Kirk's own words. Besides, Kirk was only 31 when he got the Enterprise, which is quite young. I doubt he'd been captain of a ship before.

[Timo]

No, Janeway was also confirmed to have at least one prior command. In "Revulsion," at Tuvok's promotion ceremony, she said, "The first time I met Tuvok he dressed me down in front of three Starfleet admirals for failing to observe proper tactical procedures during my first command."

However, this does not need to refer to the command of a starship. Janeway could have been commanding a research team for all we know - an assignment comparable to what Acting Ensign Wesley Crusher did in "Pen Pals".

Indeed, it would make more sense for Lieutenant Tuvok to "dress down" Ensign Janeway than Commander Janeway. And more sense for Ensign Janeway to command a research team (possibly on a planetside assignment where tactical considerations theoretically existed, although only in the mind of a somewhat paranoid Vulcan Security specialist hothead) than a starship.

On the issue of how Kirk could have gotten the "prestigious" command of the Enterprise without prior experience, it should probably be mentioned that a good way to gain prestige is to survive an unsurvivable mission. Quite possibly, Starfleet had chosen to expend the Enterprise, along with a crew of expendables, in the long shot mission of probing out of the galaxy, so that more prestigious ships, commanders and crews could safely follow.

Assigning young Commander Kirk to be the CO of the forlorn hope through the mysterious barrier would serve two practical purposes. First, the likely failure would not deprive Starfleet of an experienced officer. Second, the possible success might see Kirk surveying space outside our galaxy for a long time, with youth a definite advantage for maximizing the time spent on station and the data gathered before the ship for a second time attempted the risky piercing of the barrier.

Were Starfleet to think along these lines, it might well pick the somewhat promising XO of a humble destroyer for this assignment, counting his daredevil attitude, lack of social commitments, and his recent loss of a Starfleet father as advantages over steadfast, mature family men who have nothing to prove.

Timo Saloniemi

[Tiberius]

Timo wrote:

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However, this does not need to refer to the command of a starship. Janeway could have been commanding a research team for all we know - an assignment comparable to what Acting Ensign Wesley Crusher did in "Pen Pals".

But Wesley would never refer to that as his first command, would he? Command, in that sense, has always meant their first ship.

He's not going to say, "I remember my first command, back when I was 14..."