RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,704
Posts: 5,431,702
Members: 24,834
Currently online: 382
Newest member: kamkaran


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Enterprise

Enterprise The final frontier has a new beginning in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 24 2012, 06:33 AM   #1
magarity
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
officers are called 'sir'

When Trip first meets his new captain on the Columbia he actually called her ma'am. No, no, no. Senior officers are called sir regardless of gender. Wasn't there even a scene in Voyager's first episode or so where this was explained for everyone who didn't already know?
magarity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2012, 06:40 AM   #2
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: officers are called 'sir'

JANEWAY: Gentlemen, welcome aboard Voyager.
KIM: Thank you, sir.
JANEWAY: Mister Kim, at ease before you sprain something. Ensign, despite Starfleet protocol, I don't like being addressed as sir.
KIM: I'm sorry, ma'am.
JANEWAY: Ma'am is acceptable in a crunch, but I prefer Captain.

Voy, Caretaker
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2012, 06:59 AM   #3
Bry_Sinclair
Commodore
 
Bry_Sinclair's Avatar
 
Location: Along the border of Talarian space
Re: officers are called 'sir'

Maybe it's just his southern charm?

That was something that annoyed me with Janeway, not wanting to be called "sir". When she was a rank grade lower, did she insist on being addressed as Commandher or Cowomander, so as to offset the 'man' in the title?

It's protocol dear, just accept it, get over yourself and move on.
__________________
Avatar: Captain Susanna Leijten, U.S.S. Silverfin NCC-4470, Border Service Third Cutter Squadron
Manip by: FltCpt. Bossco (STPMA)
Bry_Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2012, 07:25 AM   #4
IndyJones
Vice Admiral
 
IndyJones's Avatar
 
Location: Chicago
Re: officers are called 'sir'

magarity wrote: View Post
When Trip first meets his new captain on the Columbia he actually called her ma'am. No, no, no. Senior officers are called sir regardless of gender. Wasn't there even a scene in Voyager's first episode or so where this was explained for everyone who didn't already know?
There's no reason why the protocol couldn't change over the 150+ years between Enterprise and Voyager.
__________________
Travel's fatal to prejudice, bigotry, narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things can't be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's life.
IndyJones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2012, 07:27 AM   #5
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: officers are called 'sir'

Claiming that something cannot be said in Trek because it runs counter to military tradition is just plain crazy.
I would never call anybody Sir by the way, it is a stupid word from aristocratic times and deserves to die out.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2012, 06:20 PM   #6
Shatinator
Commander
 
Shatinator's Avatar
 
Location: Virginia
Re: officers are called 'sir'

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Claiming that something cannot be said in Trek because it runs counter to military tradition is just plain crazy.
I would never call anybody Sir by the way, it is a stupid word from aristocratic times and deserves to die out.

You clearly don't live anywhere near the South (US). Most people despite of age use "Sir" and "Ma'am" as a sign of respect. Nothing 'crazy' 'bout it, just being courteous.

__________________
The
S H A T I N A T O R
Shatinator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2012, 06:31 PM   #7
Rhaven
Captain
 
Rhaven's Avatar
 
Location: Rhaven in Boston
Re: officers are called 'sir'

horatio83 wrote: View Post
I would never call anybody Sir by the way, it is a stupid word from aristocratic times and deserves to die out.
I disagree.
The use of sir, ma'am or miss is just a way of addressing someone you're speaking with.
__________________
I'm not a geek, I'm an aficionado.
Rhaven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2012, 06:54 PM   #8
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: officers are called 'sir'

First: Earth Starfleet is not the same organization as the Federation Starfleet. The latter is military; the former is not. So protocol is likely to be different.

Second: Of course Janeway doesn't like to be called 'Sir'. Janeway is female! Sir is a male term. You want to talk to a female superior officer, call her "ma'am", because it bloody well makes logical sense. People outside the military use the word "ma'am", so why shouldn't they use it IN the military?

Third: Strange as it may seem, there are - or were, I don't know if this shit still goes on - some extremely radical feminist groups who make up words like "womyn" and "herstory" because they don't like any word with "man" or "his" in it.
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Mr. Laser Beam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2012, 07:08 PM   #9
Middleman
Captain
 
Middleman's Avatar
 
Location: New York City ... Fuhgeddaboudit!
View Middleman's Twitter Profile
Re: officers are called 'sir'

Keep in mind that the Enterprise Era is about 200 years before Voyager.
__________________
If anything in this life is certain, if history has taught us anything, it is that you can kill anyone.
Middleman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2012, 07:12 PM   #10
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: officers are called 'sir'

Shatinator wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
Claiming that something cannot be said in Trek because it runs counter to military tradition is just plain crazy.
I would never call anybody Sir by the way, it is a stupid word from aristocratic times and deserves to die out.

You clearly don't live anywhere near the South (US). Most people despite of age use "Sir" and "Ma'am" as a sign of respect. Nothing 'crazy' 'bout it, just being courteous.

It's a stupid word from aristocratic times. Strange that you guys in the US who got rid off monarchies earlier than European on average cherish such non-egalitarian language.

Furthermore what you said is simply wrong, sir is often used as formal way to address somebody and doesn't imply any respect.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2012, 08:12 PM   #11
Gaith
Rear Admiral
 
Gaith's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
Re: officers are called 'sir'

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Furthermore what you said is simply wrong, sir is often used as formal way to address somebody and doesn't imply any respect.
This says far more about you than it does about the current meaning behind the term's usage.
Gaith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2012, 08:18 PM   #12
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: officers are called 'sir'

Hardly as there is no equivalent of Sir in my native tongue.
If somebody wants to interview a powerful person from politics or business he will call him sir even if he totally dislikes the interviewee. If I were a journalist and would be able to get an interview with Dick Cheney I would call him sir while believing that he is a dick.

This is hardly surprising, all formal forms of courtesy are basically empty and serve mainly one purpose, to create a necessary distance between people. The best example is when you run into somebody else. You retreat and apologize because you invaded his private space, you recreate the distance, you don't warmly embrace him or her.
Back to sir, I have been called sir once precisely in order to signal the increase of personal distance. We got along well but now I want a slighter cooler relationship.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2012, 08:18 PM   #13
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: officers are called 'sir'

Sir is still commonly used,
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2012, 08:48 PM   #14
Wereghost
Commodore
 
Wereghost's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland.
Re: officers are called 'sir'

The usage of "sir" for female military superiors in Trek (and BSG) is grating, arguably misogynistic and (as far as I know) possibly Ron Moore's idea as it turned up in TNG once or twice.

Apparently, though, senior naval officers have traditionally referred to juniors using "mister" regardless of gender, so the cringeworthy use of "Mister Saavik" in whichever movie Saavik first appeared in might not be incorrect.
__________________
Time is the boss of me.
Wereghost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2012, 09:08 PM   #15
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: officers are called 'sir'

Referring to a female officer as "sir," is (iirc) the current practice in the United States Coast Guard.

I very commonly refer to people as sir (or ma'am), it's how I was raised. I use it just about daily with my male friends. Saying something like "Sir, you are wrong," just rolls off the tongue.

horatio83 wrote: View Post
it is a stupid word from aristocratic times and deserves to die out.
It is even more widely used in Latin America countries, not referring to someone (especially if they are older) as Señor or Señora is very disrespectful.

I would never call anybody Sir by the way
Using terms like sir shows that you are bem cultivado (well cultured).

Strange that you guys in the US who got rid off monarchies earlier than European on average cherish such non-egalitarian language.
One of the reasons America separated from Britain was that we didn't feel that we were being treated with respect by Britain, why would we dispense with important societal practice like sir?

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Claiming that something cannot be said in Trek because it runs counter to military tradition is just plain crazy.
Like it or not, Starfleet is the armed forces of the Federation, they possess a military hierarchy, and military customs and courtesies.

__________________
.
It's easy to support someones beliefs if they are identical to your own.
Tolerating beliefs that you don't personal embrace, or even fully understand, is harder.
T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:21 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.