Kate Mulgrew's decision to not have a romance

[Guy Gardener]

teacake wrote:

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That's pretty much it in Treklit. People are always on ships for YEARS while their very young children are planetside with a partner or a grandparent. Apparently this does not fuck you up in the 24th century.

Fuck them up totally or fuck them up with their absentee parenting?

B'Elanna hating her mum for making dad run away.

Tom hating his dad for making his mum.. Did she leave or die?

Wesley never having the stones to ask Bev if Jean Luc was his real pappy... Hell she left that kid on a ship and went back to Earth for a year! Riker was supposed to be his dad (Guardian), but I think he forgot about it after a week. Teenagers and goldfish. Flush'em or feed'em no difference.

Alexander Roshenko! That kid was basket case.

Of course Kim was the worst example of overparenting ever... Although at least his mum and dad didn't have him surgically altered into a Superman.... Maybe it's just my shitty smallscreen TVs but until his parents turned up I had thought that Julian was white.

Oh gods did you see Jake mooning over Mirror Jennifer Sisko!

Of course death is a different sort of desertion.

[teacake]

You're right, we saw all that in the series. I've just been a bit gobsmacked at the scenes with some minor character sighing over her 3 year old she won't see in years, or whatever in Treklit. There probably is big daddy issues in Treklit as well but I cannot stand reading that stuff.. a lot of Treklit reads like it was written by someone who never had any ties like this but watched a whole lot of daytime television.

Starfleet is so full of itself it's just a given that you will abandon your family for it.

When they rejigged Julian into superman it bleached him.

[Violet.Phoenix]

teacake wrote:

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Why would that have happened?

In "Endgame", Admiral Janeway tells her younger self that Seven marries Chakotay, and that three years from then, she (Seven) will die. She also says that neither Chakotay nor herself will be the same after those events. I was probably exaggerating a bit in the above quoted statement, but from what we learn in the finale, it sounds like any hope of J/C while they were in the DQ was pretty much demolished by those events.

[teacake]

But if she had fallen into his arms in Resolutions that would have changed the future, surely? Of course 7 might have still died and the Admiral would have still made the decisions made in Endgame (since, IMO, it was all about 7) so that would have unfolded in the same manner. But none of that was dependent on 7 and Chak being married.

[Violet.Phoenix]

teacake wrote:

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But if she had fallen into his arms in Resolutions that would have changed the future, surely? Of course 7 might have still died and the Admiral would have still made the decisions made in Endgame (since, IMO, it was all about 7) so that would have unfolded in the same manner. But none of that was dependent on 7 and Chak being married.

She would have never "fallen" into his arms in Resolutions; she was still engaged to Mark at the time, and she held onto that until season 4 when she found out that he had married another woman.

Granted, it's probably not all dependent on that, but it still would have had an major impact on them. Death changes people, and not always for the best.

[teacake]

I'm just saying I don't think Endgame proves that J/C would not have happened in the series.

(What the heck.. how did I end up arguing for J/C?!)

Oh and really, isn't Chakotay rather sleazy to be hitting on an engaged woman?

[Guy Gardener]

Have you watched Wonderfalls yet?

Wonderfalls Security Guard: [after catching the little boy shoplifting] You have choices, life choices. This was a bad life choice. That's why you're in an unpleasant situation. Unpleasant situations can be avoided by making good life choices.
Jaye: I have to disagree. I make good life choices. Mostly because they're forced on me, but I make them. And I find myself in unpleasant situations all the time. You know why? Because even if you have a choice it can and will be taken away from you. We're all fate's bitch. You might as well go ahead and bend over for destiny now.

1t's a 13 episode commitment and thrilling.

They don't have Heisenberg compensator's on their relationship.

Surely knowing that they should get married is only going to make them question free will?

Their only chance to be real people and not slaves to predeterminism is to break up and head in opposite directions.

Admiral Janeway knew this.

[Violet.Phoenix]

teacake wrote:

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I'm just saying I don't think Endgame proves that J/C would not have happened in the series.

Fair enough. (Wait...how am I arguing against J/C?!). But seriously, watching that ep, it seems to me that J/C was pretty much shut down by the C/7 relationship (at least for the time being).

(What the heck.. how did I end up arguing for J/C?!)

It happens to us all eventually.

Oh and really, isn't Chakotay rather sleazy to be hitting on an engaged woman?

In his mind they were stuck on that planet permanently and he was trying to make a good life for them. For most of the episode he was trying to get Janeway to see the bright side of things. He only went into the whole "Angry Warrior" speech after Janeway said that they had to define parameters.

[teacake]

Guy Gardener wrote:

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Have you watched Wonderfalls yet?

1t's a 13 episode commitment and thrilling.

They don't have Heisenberg compensator's on their relationship.

Surely knowing that they should get married is only going to make them question free will?

Their only chance to be real people and not slaves to predeterminism is to break up and head in opposite directions.

Admiral Janeway knew this.

I knew it. It was all about breaking 7/C up so she could have 7 for herself.

13 ep commitment, I'm in.

[teacake]

Violet.Phoenix wrote:

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In his mind they were stuck on that planet permanently and he was trying to make a good life for them.

What a quitter, LOL

[Guy Gardener]

teacake wrote:

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13 ep commitment, I'm in.

Let me know how that works out.

[Brit]

teacake wrote:

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You're right, we saw all that in the series. I've just been a bit gobsmacked at the scenes with some minor character sighing over her 3 year old she won't see in years, or whatever in Treklit. There probably is big daddy issues in Treklit as well but I cannot stand reading that stuff.. a lot of Treklit reads like it was written by someone who never had any ties like this but watched a whole lot of daytime television.

Starfleet is so full of itself it's just a given that you will abandon your family for it.

When they rejigged Julian into superman it bleached him.

I totally agree, NG with Enterprise being a family ship made sense. Think of it this way, wagon trains west had wives and children on them, isolated army forts in the west had wives and children in them. Core families don't traditionally separate when it involves time consuming distances, they go together.

But of course if you think your demographic is young males, you distort reality. Years and years ago I had one male member of the old Decipher board tell me that he disliked Voyager because it tried to be about family. I couldn't think of one single television show that wasn't about family or friends with family like connections.

I agree about Trek Lit too, after reading the Destiny books I do have one request, that Mack never try to write pregnancy again, he is not good at it.

I've heard various gripes about Voyager staying too clean, always being repaired to perfectly to be realistic. What I think is also the lack of children is unreality too. After seven years there were have been lots of children aboard.

[teacake]

Couldn't agree more about the pregnancies. Dumbchilling reading.

I hope they NEVER do this to Janeway. I can see it now, oh J/C needs some angst let's give them a baby! Only lets make it so one of them is of two minds about this but can't tell the other one how they truly feel and lets drag it out for three novels because everyone knows this is how adults behave.. oh gag me.

[Guy Gardener]

brit, the antitime Enterprise form yesterdays Enterprise and the regular Enterprise were exactly the same size even though one was built as a troop carrier in a time or war and the other was built in peace time.

Taking "familes" with them was joke by architects who wanted to build shps that could be quickly retrofitted into troop carriers for when peace tiime eventually transitioned into wartime.

A state room for the wife and 2 kids can easier be turned into a billet for 12 Starfleet marines in a couplke hours by the engineering corps.

[Brit]

Guy Gardener wrote:

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brit, the antitime Enterprise form yesterdays Enterprise and the regular Enterprise were exactly the same size even though one was built as a troop carrier in a time or war and the other was built in peace time.

Taking "familes" with them was joke by architects who wanted to build shps that could be quickly retrofitted into troop carriers for when peace tiime eventually transitioned into wartime.

A state room for the wife and 2 kids can easier be turned into a billet for 12 Starfleet marines in a couplke hours by the engineering corps.

LOL I am pretty sure there was a lot of that, I don't have a problem with it either. Just saying that in times of expansion, families were what was expanding. Even Voyager's back story for some characters suggests families in space (I'm thinking Mort Harren). I think that space cargo carriers were most likely family businesses too.