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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old September 23 2012, 03:19 PM   #46
sonak
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Re: Religion & DS9

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Kestrel wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I think that's a fine analogy, actually. The writers seemed aware of it, too. For example, in Accession the "orb shadow" sounds very much like an hallucinogen flashback.

However, the references in DS9 to faith generally sound very much like they are intended to be taken as metaphors for Christian faith.
Well, to be fair it's not as though people haven't used mind-altering substances to have a Christian faith-experience before.
True. Point taken. I bet there are quite a few people who have dropped acid and found Jesus.

It's just that psychedelic mushrooms aren't served with the bread and wine, at least at most Eucharists.

Church would probably be more popular and better attended though if they were.
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Old September 23 2012, 04:02 PM   #47
JarodRussell
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Re: Religion & DS9

Kestrel wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The Bajoran's have the tears of the prophets, which are obviously real and obviously have the abilities of giving you visions or making you travel through time. Their "religion" is very much grounded in reality. They KNOW their gods exists, instead of simply believing it.
Glowing space rocks that give you hallucinogenic experiences which happen to fall in line with your cultural expectations? Clearly evidence of non-linear wormhole-dwelling aliens.
What's your point exactly? One of those glowing space rocks had the ability to throw the Defiant back in time and back again.. And Sisko & Co determined that they come from the wormhole, with technobabble. And I think that the Prophets (which were measured and explained with technobabble as well) even stated that they came from them. So yeah, they are evidence.

Ever since Starfleet (and I guess the Cardassians as well) showed up, the Bajoran religion turned out to be based on well-documented and scientifically explained phenomena. Unlike any of our real-world religions.
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Old September 23 2012, 07:04 PM   #48
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Re: Religion & DS9

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
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Well, to be fair it's not as though people haven't used mind-altering substances to have a Christian faith-experience before.
True. Point taken. I bet there are quite a few people who have dropped acid and found Jesus.

It's just that psychedelic mushrooms aren't served with the bread and wine, at least at most Eucharists.
That's true for sure. Although, peyote usage is an integral part of the syncretic Native American Church which at least can incorporate Christian beliefs.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Kestrel wrote: View Post
Glowing space rocks that give you hallucinogenic experiences which happen to fall in line with your cultural expectations? Clearly evidence of non-linear wormhole-dwelling aliens.
What's your point exactly? One of those glowing space rocks had the ability to throw the Defiant back in time and back again.. And Sisko & Co determined that they come from the wormhole, with technobabble. And I think that the Prophets (which were measured and explained with technobabble as well) even stated that they came from them. So yeah, they are evidence.

Ever since Starfleet (and I guess the Cardassians as well) showed up, the Bajoran religion turned out to be based on well-documented and scientifically explained phenomena. Unlike any of our real-world religions.
But until Dax and Sisko discovered the wormhole the orbs proved nothing - even the Orb of Time would rely on people's testimony.
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Old September 23 2012, 07:30 PM   #49
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Re: Religion & DS9

Kestrel wrote: View Post
But until Dax and Sisko discovered the wormhole the orbs proved nothing - even the Orb of Time would rely on people's testimony.
D'oh. It's an excellent point that the discovery of the wormhole was revolutionary, although I wouldn't say the orbs proved literally nothing. Also, to a "doubter", all the wormhole was was a wormhole, albeit a stable one, so it didn't really make any religious interpretation of the orbs more convincing than it already was.

I think "miracles" like being aware of the other timeline in Accession get at least as much mileage for proof of the Prophets as the wormhole itself does.
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Last edited by Creepy Critter; September 23 2012 at 08:03 PM. Reason: repaired mixed metaphor
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Old September 23 2012, 08:20 PM   #50
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Re: Religion & DS9

teacake wrote: View Post
Xhiandra wrote: View Post

Simple: because someone influential on the production side of things is quite religious. So, we get a very preachy, manichean Star Trek show that completely contradicts the humanist vision depicted in TOS&TNG.
You just learn to ignore the horrible religion-heavy episodes ("The Reckoning" had unintentional comical value, though)
The Reckoning is a beautiful episode that teaches us that Force Lightening comes in two different colours.

From this angle it looks lkike they are both shooting from the hip. The wormhole aliens can be naughty when they set up their confrontations.
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Old September 23 2012, 10:15 PM   #51
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Re: Religion & DS9

Drago-Kazov wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Xhiandra wrote: View Post

Simple: because someone influential on the production side of things is quite religious. So, we get a very preachy, manichean Star Trek show that completely contradicts the humanist vision depicted in TOS&TNG.
You just learn to ignore the horrible religion-heavy episodes ("The Reckoning" had unintentional comical value, though)
The Reckoning is a beautiful episode that teaches us that Force Lightening comes in two different colours.

From this angle it looks lkike they are both shooting from the hip. The wormhole aliens can be naughty when they set up their confrontations.
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Old September 28 2012, 08:02 PM   #52
Sindatur
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Re: Religion & DS9

sonak wrote: View Post
it dealt with religion yes, but not in a way that applies well to real-world ways. As others have pointed out, Bajor's "prophets" were actually powerful energy beings that did intervene in galactic affairs, so the whole "faith" issue is discarded. You don't need "faith," you saw them make 2800 Dominion ships disappear.

Also, I didn't like the way that they retconned Sisko into half-Prophet. Ira Behr seems proud of that decision, I think it was stupid and changes a lot of early DS9 stuff, like "Emissary."
If Ira Behr made the claim that Sisko was Half Prophet, that certainly isn't what was shown onscreen. What was shown on screen was that a Prophet possessed Sisko's mother, and influenced her to get pregnant by Sisko's father. Their was no indication the Prophet contributed any Genetic material
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Old September 28 2012, 09:32 PM   #53
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Re: Religion & DS9

Sindatur wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
it dealt with religion yes, but not in a way that applies well to real-world ways. As others have pointed out, Bajor's "prophets" were actually powerful energy beings that did intervene in galactic affairs, so the whole "faith" issue is discarded. You don't need "faith," you saw them make 2800 Dominion ships disappear.

Also, I didn't like the way that they retconned Sisko into half-Prophet. Ira Behr seems proud of that decision, I think it was stupid and changes a lot of early DS9 stuff, like "Emissary."
If Ira Behr made the claim that Sisko was Half Prophet, that certainly isn't what was shown onscreen. What was shown on screen was that a Prophet possessed Sisko's mother, and influenced her to get pregnant by Sisko's father. Their was no indication the Prophet contributed any Genetic material
Well, it kinda has to be, because otherwise it makes no real sense why they would go through that whole process. Why not simply chose someone who's already born to be the One?
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Old September 28 2012, 11:04 PM   #54
Sindatur
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Re: Religion & DS9

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
it dealt with religion yes, but not in a way that applies well to real-world ways. As others have pointed out, Bajor's "prophets" were actually powerful energy beings that did intervene in galactic affairs, so the whole "faith" issue is discarded. You don't need "faith," you saw them make 2800 Dominion ships disappear.

Also, I didn't like the way that they retconned Sisko into half-Prophet. Ira Behr seems proud of that decision, I think it was stupid and changes a lot of early DS9 stuff, like "Emissary."
If Ira Behr made the claim that Sisko was Half Prophet, that certainly isn't what was shown onscreen. What was shown on screen was that a Prophet possessed Sisko's mother, and influenced her to get pregnant by Sisko's father. Their was no indication the Prophet contributed any Genetic material
Well, it kinda has to be, because otherwise it makes no real sense why they would go through that whole process. Why not simply chose someone who's already born to be the One?
Because it was always the Sisko. Non-Linear, remember. They know it's the Sisko, so they had to ensure the Sisko was created
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Old September 28 2012, 11:27 PM   #55
JarodRussell
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Re: Religion & DS9

Well that's predestination, he was the Sisko because he's a half prophet. What's so particularly special about him otherwise?
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Old September 29 2012, 02:08 AM   #56
teacock
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Re: Religion & DS9

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Well that's predestination, he was the Sisko because he's a half prophet. What's so particularly special about him otherwise?
Well there's this..

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Old September 29 2012, 02:36 AM   #57
R. Star
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Re: Religion & DS9

^
He also nailed the mirror Kira in that episode.. though he probably got the space clap from her.. maybe that's why he lost his hair.
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Old September 29 2012, 02:52 AM   #58
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Re: Religion & DS9

What happens in the Mirror Universe stays in the Mirror Universe
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Old September 29 2012, 04:31 AM   #59
Sindatur
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Re: Religion & DS9

teacake wrote: View Post
What happens in the Mirror Universe stays in the Mirror Universe
Is that where his Hair went? Truth be told, other than the "Q Punch" he was much more bad ass after losing the hair
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Old September 29 2012, 05:18 AM   #60
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Re: Religion & DS9

The science of the wormhole aliens reminds me of George Lucas' midi-chlorians: pseudo-science designed to give credibility to otherwise banal religion/mysticism.

But the psychology of faith in DS9 is still interesting, e.g. the Bajoran cult members' desperate longing to be ruled, cognitive dissonance, and so on.
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