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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate The Eternal Tide.
Outstanding 82 49.40%
Above Average 50 30.12%
Average 27 16.27%
Below Average 2 1.20%
Poor 5 3.01%
Voters: 166. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 22 2012, 09:46 PM   #406
JD
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Square wrote: View Post
Defcon wrote: View Post
My review of the novel is now up over at Unreality SF: http://unreality-sf.net/2012/09/18/s...l-tide-review/
Ummmmm....yeah.

I think what actually did so was that at the end, it felt to me as if the series had returned too closely to the TV seriesí status quo, and as a result I feel that the state of affairs is a lot less interesting after the events of The Eternal Tide than it was after Children of the Storm, and a lot of the good work done in the last few novels has been undone in the process. Iím aware that many of the characters Beyer developed over the last few novels ares still there even while several of the ships arenít, but I doubt that Starfleet has the resources to replenish the fleet with new ships, so I fear that even if the characters return the fleet will have less diverse settings as a result.
I also review novels that haven't even been written yet.

And I really wish people would stop boo-hooing about character relationships in Trek novels. J/C is a popular 'ship and the novels have been setting it up since Homecoming. They have "chemistry" in the novels because the novels say they do. Feel free to focus your efforts on "hard" sci-fi from now on, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
I've been reading Defcon's reviews for a while now, and even though I don't always agree with him, I think he's a very good reviewer. There was no need for the reaction you had. Sure, you can disagree with him, you just don't need to be rude about it.
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Old September 22 2012, 11:00 PM   #407
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^ Thanks for the defense, but I don't think it is necessary.

Square has a point when s/he says that you have to deal with the responses when you post your opinions publicly. And, as I have said a couple of times in the past that's all I see reviews as: the opinion of one person. It's the nature of mankind that we don't agree on everything. And if Square chooses to voice his disagreement in the manner he did, I guess that says more about him/her than about me/my review.

RE his points of criticism:

If Square perceives having one sentence in this short excerpt of the significantly longer review speculating about future novels as reviewing them, than that is his/her opinion, and I'm also free to strongly disagree.

Square wrote: View Post
They have "chemistry" in the novels because the novels say they do.
All they have because "the novels say they do" is a relationship.

Janeway and Chakotay just don't work as a couple in my opinion. One of the main problems is probably that Chakotay to me has been little more than a cardboard cut-out character-wise for the majority of the series. Kirsten has remedied that to a certain extent in her previous novels, but it's still hard for me to see what a strong woman like Janeway would see in him.

And regarding your implications that I'm against relationships in Trek novels as a whole, I would appreciate if you wouldn't put words into my mouth, only because I don't agree with one specific pairing.
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Old September 22 2012, 11:52 PM   #408
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I think Chakotay was much less of a "cutout" in the first two or three seasons. He was a very spiritual man who was also a dedicated scientist, and he was an angry enough activist to join the Maquis while still being a very gentle and kind person who reflexively saw the best in everyone. I can see why someone would find a person with such complexities to be interesting. Just because later seasons neglected to showcase those personality traits doesn't mean he never had them.
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Old September 23 2012, 01:54 AM   #409
Violet.Phoenix
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

The way I see it, anyone's view on any one or more relationships in Trek (or any other fandom) is completely subjective. Some may see chemistry where others do not. The Janeway/Chakotay relationship (and any previous chemistry) has been a topic of discussion for years, and while some people see it, again, others may disagree. I've always seen chemistry between the two of them, but I can also understand why it could be argued that they have no chemistry. It's all a matter of opinion.

Defcon wrote: View Post
Janeway and Chakotay just don't work as a couple in my opinion. One of the main problems is probably that Chakotay to me has been little more than a cardboard cut-out character-wise for the majority of the series. Kirsten has remedied that to a certain extent in her previous novels, but it's still hard for me to see what a strong woman like Janeway would see in him.
Chakotay did fade into the background a bit in the later seasons, IMO. Janeway was (and likely always will be) a head-strong woman who goes after what she wants and what she believes to be right. But I agree with Christopher that Chakotay was much less of "cut-out" in the earlier seasons. I think that's due to the wide range of things that we saw in his character. We saw anger, passion, caring and curiosity. It's a shame that the later seasons didn't showcase as much of that. However, I think that Kirsten has done a great job with his character in the novels.
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Old September 23 2012, 03:07 AM   #410
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
The way I see it, anyone's view on any one or more relationships in Trek (or any other fandom) is completely subjective. Some may see chemistry where others do not. The Janeway/Chakotay relationship (and any previous chemistry) has been a topic of discussion for years, and while some people see it, again, others may disagree. I've always seen chemistry between the two of them, but I can also understand why it could be argued that they have no chemistry. It's all a matter of opinion.
Right, and not just for fictional characters. How often do we look at an involved couple that we're acquainted with and think "I don't know what he/she sees in her/him"? Sometimes we can't understand what attracts two people to each other, but that doesn't mean that the universe is writing them out of character. It just means it's subjective.
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Old September 23 2012, 03:22 AM   #411
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)


All they have because "the novels say they do" is a relationship.

Janeway and Chakotay just don't work as a couple in my opinion. One of the main problems is probably that Chakotay to me has been little more than a cardboard cut-out character-wise for the majority of the series.
In the show, yes; in the novels, no. And I'm not just talking about the "Beyer-verse."

J/C elements have featured in a number of books, from Golden's work, to Carey, to Bennet, to Distant Shores, et al.

In the show, Chuckles was hampered by lousy writing and Beltran's wooden acting. In the novels, at least in the ones I've read, he has none of these problems. Personally, I hated him in the series, but being privy to the character's "internal monologue" goes a ways in helping me not want to punch his tattoo back to the white, European, alien-gods he got it from.
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Old September 23 2012, 04:43 AM   #412
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JD wrote: View Post
Square wrote: View Post
Defcon wrote: View Post
My review of the novel is now up over at Unreality SF: http://unreality-sf.net/2012/09/18/s...l-tide-review/
Ummmmm....yeah.

I think what actually did so was that at the end, it felt to me as if the series had returned too closely to the TV seriesí status quo, and as a result I feel that the state of affairs is a lot less interesting after the events of The Eternal Tide than it was after Children of the Storm, and a lot of the good work done in the last few novels has been undone in the process. Iím aware that many of the characters Beyer developed over the last few novels ares still there even while several of the ships arenít, but I doubt that Starfleet has the resources to replenish the fleet with new ships, so I fear that even if the characters return the fleet will have less diverse settings as a result.
I also review novels that haven't even been written yet.

And I really wish people would stop boo-hooing about character relationships in Trek novels. J/C is a popular 'ship and the novels have been setting it up since Homecoming. They have "chemistry" in the novels because the novels say they do. Feel free to focus your efforts on "hard" sci-fi from now on, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
I've been reading Defcon's reviews for a while now, and even though I don't always agree with him, I think he's a very good reviewer. There was no need for the reaction you had. Sure, you can disagree with him, you just don't need to be rude about it.
I wasn't "rude."

Your personal standards of what constitutes "rude" have absolutely nothing to do with me, and, speaking of which, it's generally considered "rude" to derail a thread just to air personal quibbles about another poster.

From this point forward, if you have a nit to pick with the way I choose to word my messages, keep it confined to PMs and avoid bringing the rest of the forum into it. This is my last public post on the subject.

Thank you for being considerate.

BACK ON TOPIC, PLEASE.
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Old September 23 2012, 08:57 AM   #413
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Square wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
Square wrote: View Post

Ummmmm....yeah.

I also review novels that haven't even been written yet.

And I really wish people would stop boo-hooing about character relationships in Trek novels. J/C is a popular 'ship and the novels have been setting it up since Homecoming. They have "chemistry" in the novels because the novels say they do. Feel free to focus your efforts on "hard" sci-fi from now on, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
I've been reading Defcon's reviews for a while now, and even though I don't always agree with him, I think he's a very good reviewer. There was no need for the reaction you had. Sure, you can disagree with him, you just don't need to be rude about it.
I wasn't "rude."

Your personal standards of what constitutes "rude" have absolutely nothing to do with me, and, speaking of which, it's generally considered "rude" to derail a thread just to air personal quibbles about another poster.

From this point forward, if you have a nit to pick with the way I choose to word my messages, keep it confined to PMs and avoid bringing the rest of the forum into it. This is my last public post on the subject.

Thank you for being considerate.

BACK ON TOPIC, PLEASE.

Why respond to my post twice?
And yes, you were being rude. On this forum, we have a standard of civil behaviour towards eachother. You choice to disregard that, and respond (as Christopher said) childish because someone had a different opinion on a subject that's important to you. Instead of coming with a civilized, thought out response, you whine. That's being rude.

And please, do not attempt to acuse me of derailing a topic because of 'personal issues' with a poster. Your first post was exactly that, an attack on someone who dared to attack your 'shipping of J/C. If you can't deal with people feeling different then you do about something, then perhaps a forum is not the place for you to hang out.
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Old September 23 2012, 09:23 AM   #414
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

He clearly quoted JD then, not yourself. It says so in the post.

As for the book, it was ok, just not as good as the previous three novels and all my "failings" of the novel has been aired.
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Old September 23 2012, 09:28 AM   #415
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Dimesdan wrote: View Post
He clearly quoted JD then, not yourself. It says so in the post.

As for the book, it was ok, just not as good as the previous three novels and all my "failings" of the novel has been aired.
I could have sworn I saw my username in that second quote.... Well I feel silly now.

As for Eternal Tide... It wasn't my favorite Beyer-novel. Wasn't bad, certainly not. I'll probably give it a re-read in a few weeks, after Brinkmanship or something like that. See how I feel then.
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Old September 23 2012, 10:22 PM   #416
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I thought the book was a really average read. I really, really dislike the idea of bringing back Janeway and I would agree with the opinion that her relationship with Chakotay feels really, really forced. I just can't picture the two of them together.

I also felt the book relied on too many twists and turns. I liked Eden and I'm disappointed Janeway will (likely) take her place in the Delta Quadrant fleet. I wish Janeway would've remained dead. Hell, I would've been pleased had Junior tried to bring her back but ultimately failed.
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Old September 24 2012, 04:25 PM   #417
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Seven and Chakotay was forced. The Chakotay/Janeway attraction was developed and obvious over the course of the show. The two were a little flirty regualarly and the attraction was most obvious in the episode when thery were stranded on a planet together.

I liked Eden but I never got into her as I have with many other novel original characters. Plus, I think this was the eventuality planned for Eden from the beginning so you can't be too dispointed with how she turned out.
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Old September 24 2012, 06:57 PM   #418
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
I liked Eden but I never got into her as I have with many other novel original characters. Plus, I think this was the eventuality planned for Eden from the beginning so you can't be too dispointed with how she turned out.
Actually yes you can, just because the author planned to do something from the beginning doesn't mean your forced to like it. Especially since it feels like it was rushed.
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Old September 25 2012, 07:11 PM   #419
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Okay, so I finished the book yesterday. It was a good read but it's my least favorite of Beyer's work thus far. The author still nails the VOY characters - I've never seen anyone do such a remarkable job of fleshing out the Voyager crew and making them complex, three-dimensional characters. The character work in The Eternal Tide continues and is nicely done. I also think that Beyer did a good job at handling Janeway's resurrection, even if I don't particularly think this character needed to return from the dead. I really didn't have an issue with her death and was perfectly fine with the VOY relaunch as it was handled in Beyer's first three installments (Full Circle, Unworthy, and Children of the Storm). I liked that there was an entire fleet of ships exploring the Delta quadrant. I liked the character of Asfarah Eden. And now, by the end of The Eternal Tide, everything has changed. Over half of the fleet has been lost. Eden's story was cut short (and not handled in a terribly interesting way, in my opinion) and the character has been removed so that Janeway can come back and take her place. Meh. I kinda liked things the way they were before. At the rate we're going, the next novel will feature the destruction of the remaining fleet ships except for Voyager, and their slipstream drive will be damaged beyond repair, stranding the ship in the Delta quadrant again and re-creating the series all over again. And then I'd just have to stop reading.
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Old September 25 2012, 07:15 PM   #420
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I very much enjoyed The Eternal Tide. It brought a decent resolution to Afsarah Eden's story arc - although I would've liked to see her survive, so that she could have interacted with Janeway a little more - and it fleshed out the Q Continuum just a little bit more, following on from Before Dishonor and incorporating points from Q & A. Junior and Amanda's existential arguments reminded me a lot of Christopher's DTI novels.

What can I say about Kathryn Janeway's resurrection that hasn't already been said? Well, for one thing I don't think that it's an indication that Pocket or the authors and editors have "lost their nerve" in not letting a popular character stay dead. Stranger things have happened in the world of Star Trek, and The Eternal Tide is very much a "Q" novel - so, combined with the obvious set-up in the final chapter of Before Dishonor, it's believable that the Q would have a hand in her return. I did like that the Q can't (or won't) bring a mortal back from the dead, but can still loophole their way into telling the deceased how to do it for themselves!

Kes's appearance was very welcome, as was the dialogue which indicated that the Kes who appeared in Fury was not really Kes, but some breakaway aspect of her personality. I did get confused over mentions of her son Kol, and injuries Janeway sustained that she must never know about - but I've not read String Theory, so that's entirely my fault.

Finally, although I enjoyed the novel, it wasn't perfect. It feels silly to make accusations of deus ex machina, considering that the Q are involved and are using their powers left and right to influence events in the story. Miral's "Klingon Messiah" status is dealt with - understandable, as that plotline didn't seem like it really fit with Voyager's new dynamic with the Delta Quadrant fleet. Chakotay makes a heroic sacrifice, but gets better! And Voyager can now perform a saucer separation - now, forgive me if I'm misremembering, but has this been previously established? It seemed like it came out of the blue.

Can the Delta Quadrant fleet survive with just four ships? Starfleet must be seething; four top-of-the-line slipstream-enabled vessels, lost in circumstances mostly unrelated to the fleet's mission! And speaking of the fleet's mission - while it was good to see Riley Frazier again and get some follow-up on the events of Unity, it seemed like it was part of a different story; once Omega and Eden's past are revealed, they (and the Tarkons) are almost forgotten about.

And Amanda Rogers. Where did she go? She "poured herself into" Omega and was erased from existence... convenient, as this leaves Junior as the only remaining "child of the Q", and so the only person able to make the noble sacrifice with Eden. It could be (uncharitably, in my view) suggested that Amanda was included in this novel because her existence and backstory threw a spanner into the works of the narrative. And with Chakotay's return, it seemed logical that Amanda would return too.

Overall, I found The Eternal Tide a great "season finale" for the Voyager fleet. The status quo is irrevocably changed due to the return of Janeway and the loss of the fleet, and it remains to be seen whether their mission can continue. Finally, I was hoping for some follow-up to the plotline with Meegan and the artifacts from Unworthy - perhaps next time!
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