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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old September 22 2012, 04:30 PM   #1
The Overlord
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Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? It seems like allowing the Memorial to mind rape any beings who enter that system is pretty immoral. What if a ship full of pacifists enter that system, wouldn't exposing them to the thought transmissions from the Memorial screw them up. Setting up a warning at the planet doesn't change the fact that the Memorial can affect people who enter the system. Also doesn't fixing the Memorial break the Prime Directive?
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Old September 22 2012, 04:59 PM   #2
Guy Gardener
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Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

Breaking the memorial breaks the Prime Directive.

Leaving a Buoy breaks the Prime Directive.

You know how when some thug steals a street sign in your nighbourhood?

You know what that road is.

You've lived there for years.

Replacing it doesn't seem a priority.

Leaving the Buoy was redundant for the most part.

And imagine really, if well armed Russian paratroopers dropped into your nieghbourhood and fixed all your missing road signage, then filled in all your nasty potholes and trimmed your hedges?

Shit you were planning to get around to?

That's cause for war.
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Last edited by Guy Gardener; September 22 2012 at 05:18 PM.
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Old September 22 2012, 07:01 PM   #3
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Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

The question of the Prime Directive here is rather... dubious.
Did the crew have it within their right to repair the monument?
Maybe that was considered interference.
On the other hand... deploying buoys to warn other ships on what to expect probably could have been done in the first place by the species who placed the memorial.

Perhaps the Voyager crew was traumatized so much because the memorial was damaged (due to being neglected - and I think it might have even been implied) - perhaps if it was functioning properly, it wouldn't cause the crew to be considered 'violated'.
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Old September 22 2012, 08:22 PM   #4
Guy Gardener
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Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

The memorial was working fine.

Not broken.

It's just that the warning signs/buoys that should have been there weren't at the boundaries of the effect any more.

this is exactly why Voyager had to stay in the Delta Quadrant, they couldn't trust automation to get 'er done.

EMH: Even if we do shut down the transmitter I'm afraid your memories of the massacre are permanent.
TUVOK: But we'll prevent this from happening to other passing ships.
NEELIX: If we do that, all record of what happened here would be lost.
CHAKOTAY: The monument will still be here.
NEELIX: But that doesn't really tell the story. Someone put a lot of time and care into building that transmitter. We can't just deactivate it. We don't have the right!
KIM: Did they have the right to force us to relive all that?
NEELIX: They wanted others to know what it was like in the hopes that nothing like it would happen again.
CHAKOTAY: Why should anyone have to experience an atrocity they didn't commit?
NEELIX: Because that's how you learn not to make the same mistake. If we destroy the evidence, we're no better than Saavdra.
PARIS: Maybe he had a point.
KIM: It wasn't our fault!
TUVOK: Given the danger involved, it's only logical
NEELIX: This isn't about logic, it's about remembering.
CHAKOTAY: Some things are best forgotten.
JANEWAY: Not this. I stood by once before and did nothing. Not again.
EMH: Captain?
JANEWAY: I watched while Saavdra vaporised the bodies.
PARIS: No offence but, those were other peoples' memories.
JANEWAY: The obelisk at Khitomer? The fields of Gettysburg? Those are other peoples' memories too, but we don't honour them any less. The eighty two colonists who died here, they deserve their memorial.
CHAKOTAY: Captain.
JANEWAY: We're not going to shut down the transmitter. Is that clear? Is that clear?
TUVOK: Are you suggesting we leave it intact?
JANEWAY: I'm suggesting that we repair it. Recharge the power cells. I want that monument to function properly for another three hundred years. We'll place a warning buoy in orbit. Anyone who enters this system will know what to expect. Dismissed.
She also charged the batteries?

If the memorial was designed with a finite life expectancy, rather than a regenerative power-supply, like solar or geothermal, it's possible that the designers decided that this wasn't going to be an open ended project and it was in the process of being decommissioned when Voyager...

Now I'm thinking about that ^%$# Goldilocks rifling through the three bears house like she was some sort of entitled (*&^ princess.
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Old September 22 2012, 08:52 PM   #5
T'Girl
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Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

The PD is to prevent damage to a culture? The culture is gone, no damage.

Up ahead and around the corner there is a rapist. You can "turn him off' by removing him or destroying him. Or you can erect a sign warning others of his presence and intentions.

Now the rapist (like the people who built the monument) may think that his actions are just fine. If you do nothing, you agree with him.

Not all rape is physical.

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Old September 22 2012, 09:17 PM   #6
Guy Gardener
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Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

And not all rape is soggy.

The monument is a hazard to navigation which stymies the local space-lanes. if a species is flummoxed by it, and run home with tales of being used as soldiers in some war fought by dickheads, and they all decide to stay planet bound for another hundred years, then they're wussies who wouldn't function in the presence of a real threat and it's a good thing that they know how to hide.

Your analogy about the rapist is fine.

but is this internal or external matter?

Should you deal with it?

Should Your police deal with it?

Or should some random foreign vagrant just be handing out their foreign justice indiscriminately?
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Old September 23 2012, 12:35 AM   #7
teacake
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Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

I think they should have turned it into a holo-theme park, Genocide Land. The buoys acted as flyers advertising the experience to any passers by, but you had to beam down to actually go on the rides.
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Old September 23 2012, 12:47 AM   #8
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Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

These aliens were jerks of the first order to kill those people, then only demonstrated they hadn't learned ANYTHING resembling morality from it by forcing those memories on everyone who passes by.

Janeway proves she's pretty much a tyrant by supporting the mind rape of random passer bys, not only supporting it but aiding and abetting it by fixing the damn thing to make it violate people even better! And Neelix... well by supporting randomly mindraping people as if that's some great lession, this is yet another reason he's a jerk. The rest of the crew told Janeway how stupid this was, she just said screw you and couldn't pass up on the oppurtunity to make people suffer in the name of righteousness.

Thank you, I don't need to have the memory of killing someone to know that it's wrong. What sort of stupid premise is this? I'm going to violate someone to teach them morality! Yeah... stupid.
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Old September 23 2012, 12:55 AM   #9
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Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

I think Janeway was still under the influence of the Memorial, a stockholm syndrome deal, when she made that decision.

At least, that's what I tell myself since I'm always a bit shocked to find myself siding with Chakotay in this one. Chak probably had some built up resistance to fantasy realness because of his spirit guide guff.
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Old September 23 2012, 12:57 AM   #10
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Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

Is it possible the rape machine made Janeway like it?

Forced her to fix the bugger?

Part of it's program is to make random wanderers by fix it up if something is wrong?

And while they were in there, what else did they do to her brain?
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Old September 23 2012, 05:55 AM   #11
Finn
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Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

R. Star wrote: View Post
These aliens were jerks of the first order to kill those people, then only demonstrated they hadn't learned ANYTHING resembling morality from it by forcing those memories on everyone who passes by.

Janeway proves she's pretty much a tyrant by supporting the mind rape of random passer bys, not only supporting it but aiding and abetting it by fixing the damn thing to make it violate people even better! And Neelix... well by supporting randomly mindraping people as if that's some great lession, this is yet another reason he's a jerk. The rest of the crew told Janeway how stupid this was, she just said screw you and couldn't pass up on the oppurtunity to make people suffer in the name of righteousness.

Thank you, I don't need to have the memory of killing someone to know that it's wrong. What sort of stupid premise is this? I'm going to violate someone to teach them morality! Yeah... stupid.
Wasn't it said that due to the malfunction, they didn't experience it the way the builders intended. Perhaps it would have been less traumatic.
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Old September 23 2012, 05:58 AM   #12
R. Star
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Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

Finn wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
These aliens were jerks of the first order to kill those people, then only demonstrated they hadn't learned ANYTHING resembling morality from it by forcing those memories on everyone who passes by.

Janeway proves she's pretty much a tyrant by supporting the mind rape of random passer bys, not only supporting it but aiding and abetting it by fixing the damn thing to make it violate people even better! And Neelix... well by supporting randomly mindraping people as if that's some great lession, this is yet another reason he's a jerk. The rest of the crew told Janeway how stupid this was, she just said screw you and couldn't pass up on the oppurtunity to make people suffer in the name of righteousness.

Thank you, I don't need to have the memory of killing someone to know that it's wrong. What sort of stupid premise is this? I'm going to violate someone to teach them morality! Yeah... stupid.
Wasn't it said that due to the malfunction, they didn't experience it the way the builders intended. Perhaps it would have been less traumatic.
It was and by all accounts it was apparently supposed to be more effective/worse. It didn't effect the whole of the crew at once for example, the poor thing was getting old.

It's a good thing Janeway fixed it, an innocent ship might have passed by without getting violated if they left it alone.
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Old September 23 2012, 06:04 AM   #13
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Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Is it possible the rape machine made Janeway like it?

Forced her to fix the bugger?

Part of it's program is to make random wanderers by fix it up if something is wrong?

And while they were in there, what else did they do to her brain?
Well at the end of The Eternal Tide..
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Old September 23 2012, 01:25 PM   #14
Anwar
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Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

It's the only remnant of a genocide-inflicted culture. Destroying it would be destroying all that remained of them. It's a dubious issue, really.
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Old September 23 2012, 03:59 PM   #15
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Re: Did the Voyager crew make the wrong call in Memorial? "

No she wasn't wrong.

What right does she have to remove/destroy something on someone's world? Even if they're gone.
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