Could the "new" villain be....????

[Enterprise is Great]

Grant wrote:

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Space Seed not 'highly regarded'---??? Wow I disagree.

In any case it's a good episode. Excellent in many people's opinion.

Whom Gods Destroy is wince-inducing.

Nothing showing Yvonne Craig's legs is wince-inducing.

[Therin of Andor]

Grant wrote:

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And then people look at 'Whom Gods Destroy' with all the overacting and nonsense and ridicule it. Not good publicity.

"Space Seed" wasn't chosen for its quality. It was simply the episode that made Harve Bennett think that it had the most potential for a sequel.

[Grant]

M'Sharak wrote:

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Eh, I enjoy it. You've got dancing and borderline-homicidal insanity from green Yvonne Craig; you've got outstanding scenery-chewing and megalomania from Steve Ihnat - what's not to like?

Sure, some episodes are guilty pleasures, but they flat out are not gonna take a major character from a terrible episode and make him a part of the movie.

Obviously they don't make a sequel to an episode because the episode is good. Duh. Obviously, they're looking for an episode that offers potential for a good reprise/expansion.

My point is simply that they will not take a character from a terrible episode and make him into the main villain in a $200 movie. That's a stupid risk.

[M'Sharak]

Grant wrote:

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Sure, some episodes are guilty pleasures...

Only I don't believe in the notion of "guilty pleasure"; if I like something, I like it, and that's that. Guilt becomes a factor only if you harbor the belief that someone else's approval is required, somehow, before it's really OK to like something.

Grant wrote:

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...but they flat out are not gonna take a major character from a terrible episode and make him a part of the movie.

That's an assumption, as much as is the one which says that the Khan character would be selected as villain due to the overwhelmingly superior quality of the episode "Space Seed".

Grant wrote:

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Obviously they don't make a sequel to an episode because the episode is good. Duh. Obviously, they're looking for an episode that offers potential for a good reprise/expansion.

My point is simply that they will not take a character from a terrible episode and make him into the main villain in a $200 movie. That's a stupid risk.

Still just assumptions, though. If they do it right, the filmmakers will have chosen their characters because those are the characters needed to tell the story they have in mind, and I can't see much sense in making such choices based upon any other requirement.

[Therin of Andor]

Grant wrote:

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My point is simply that they will not take a character from a terrible episode and make him into the main villain in a $200 movie. That's a stupid risk.

I don't recall "The Changeling" being terribly highly regarded either, but they recycled the concept of a robotic probe seeking its creator in "Robot's Return" (a "Genesis II" script), "In Thy Image" ("Phase II") and in ST:TMP. As a new fan to ST, with only a few TAS and fewer TOS episodes under my belt, I came to TMP with absolutely no idea that the concept had been done before. And TMP, in its day, was the Guiness Book of Records' most expensive movie ever, surpassing "Cleopatra", IIRC. (Partly due to it carrying all the prep finances for "Phase II".)

Then, just three movies later, the renegade space probe idea was done again! A huge risk that people who thought that TMP had been boring and recycled might walk out of the cinema when yet another mysterious, seemingly malevolent probe starts neutralizing ships and planets in ST IV.

Since the new movies are being made for the general public - and especially for all those people who saw the 2009 movie and want to see more of those characters - I'm not sure it matters if JJ's team even use elements from "Spock's Brain", "Plato's Stepchildren" or "The Way to Eden".

Captain Garth is a formerly great starship captain who had a tragic accident that gave him bizarre superhuman powers and sent him insane. And he was seemingly admired by Kirk. In the prime timeline.

In the new timeline, altered by Nero's action just before Kirk's birth, Garth could be anyone. There is no suggestion the film would be a TOS Season Three level adventure because a character is reused.

However, having typed all that, wasn't there originally an Orci hint that the movie's villain was someone from earlier in TOS's run? Garth's alien-granted super powers were reminiscent of Charlie X's powers anyway. Maybe B. Cumberbatch is... Charlie?

Another wild guess: maybe he's both Trelane and Koloth, finally explaining why those characters had the same faces in TOS?

[Grant]

^^Simple question then.

Do you think they would ever use the character of Garth in a movie?

As I said, I like the concept of the character, but I think being from a lousy episode (IMO) greatly diminishes the chance he would be used.

I guess if you don't consider the episode lousy that would affect your answer.

I guess a better question is, "Do you think they would ever use a villain from a generally accepted 'bad' episode?"

Dr Severin, Lazurus, Space Parasites, Parmin?

[Therin of Andor]

Grant wrote:

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^^Simple question then.
Do you think they would ever use the character of Garth in a movie?

Sure. But then, the episode is a personal favourite, so I'm biased.

I'm sure that Gaila's presence in ST (2009) suggests that Marta (and Vina) impressed Orci and Kurtzman, too.

[Grant]

Really? You think if Vina did not exist and Marta DID, they would have used a green Orion girl?


Vina/Cage are so iconic that nobody thinks of Marta when they think of Orion woman.

[Therin of Andor]

Grant wrote:

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nobody thinks of Marta when they think of Orion woman.

Except Yvonne Craig and Batgirl fans.

[UFO]

M'Sharak wrote:

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... If they do it right, the filmmakers will have chosen their characters because those are the characters needed to tell the story they have in mind, and I can't see much sense in making such choices based upon any other requirement.

Its interesting which comes first: the character or the story? Either one could I guess.

I agree about where the character(s) can come from. Good writers should be able to spot potential wherever it lies.

[M'Sharak]

Grant wrote:

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^^Simple question then.

Do you think they would ever use the character of Garth in a movie?

As I said, I like the concept of the character, but I think being from a lousy episode (IMO) greatly diminishes the chance he would be used.

I guess if you don't consider the episode lousy that would affect your answer.

I guess a better question is, "Do you think they would ever use a villain from a generally accepted 'bad' episode?"

Dr Severin, Lazurus, Space Parasites, Parmin?

Even allowing that such a thing as "a generally accepted bad episode" can be said to exist, I think it no less likely than that they would use a villain from (again, allowing) "a generally accepted good episode". (Or, in a nutshell: if Garth is the right character for the story, then Garth; if not, then not Garth. Seemples.)

Grant wrote:

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Vina/Cage are so iconic that nobody thinks of Marta when they think of Orion woman.

Okay.

When you say "nobody," do you really mean "nobody," or something more along the lines of "nobody who agrees with me (because obviously mine is the correct opinion)"?

Edit:

UFO wrote:

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Its interesting which comes first: the character or the story?

Yes.

[Ovation]

Enterprise is Great wrote:

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Nothing showing Yvonne Craig's legs is wince-inducing.

Exactly. In fact, I think I'll pop in the blu-ray and watch that episode right now.

[Grant]

yeah its an excellent episode--well written, etc.

[Ovation]

Wait, there was dialogue in that episode?