Did Insurrection kill the TNG franchise?

[NrobbieC]

Dream wrote:

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Answer. It didn't.

If people are going to blame something it should be Enterprise.

Nothing wrong with Enterprise.

[los2188]

Well from the responses, it looks to be almost 50/50 as to whether or not Insurrection killed the TNG movie franchise. I have no doubt in my mind that had Insurrection been well received and made more money, Nemesis might not have been "A Generation's Final Journey." I still have a feeling of an incompleteness to the TNG franchise. Let me pose this question...after First Contact, why would they change movie styles to go to a light and fun movie? I was much of an internet guy back then, but was there a huge backlash or desire from the fans to go back to a TNG-TV style of movie??

[Dream]

NrobbieC wrote:

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Nothing wrong with Enterprise.

Plenty of things wrong with Enteprise. The first two seasons being mediocre to terrible for example. Also a bad captain that keeps getting beat up and captured.

[NrobbieC]

Dream wrote:

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Plenty of things wrong with Enteprise. The first two seasons being mediocre to terrible for example. Also a bad captain that keeps getting beat up and captured.

The first 2 seasons of ENT are better than the first 2 seasons of DS9, VOY and especially TNG. My god he first 2 seasons of TNG were atrocious.

Archer's still better than Kirk.

[BillJ]

NrobbieC wrote:

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The first 2 seasons of ENT are better than the first 2 seasons of DS9, VOY and especially TNG. My god he first 2 seasons of TNG were atrocious.

Archer's still better than Kirk.

The sad thing is that you actually believe that.

Archer had his high points, but he had way too many embarrassing moments.

[Dream]

BillJ wrote:

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The sad thing is that you actually believe that.

Archer had his high points, but he had way too many embarrassing moments.

A Trek Captain needs to be commanding and respected. They completely failed at showing those parts when creating Archer.

Janeway was more of a Captain than Archer was, even though she was written so inconsistently!

[NrobbieC]

BillJ wrote:

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The sad thing is that you actually believe that.

Archer had his high points, but he had way too many embarrassing moments.

Yeah, that was the point, being the first and all.

[BillJ]

NrobbieC wrote:

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Yeah, that was the point, being the first and all.

No. Not gaffes where he was in over his head, gaffes where he was simply too stupid to know better. Go take a gander at Strange New World, where he nearly gets his landing party killed because he was too dumb to know good advice regardless of its source.

[Dream]

NrobbieC wrote:

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The first 2 seasons of ENT are better than the first 2 seasons of DS9, VOY and especially TNG. My god he first 2 seasons of TNG were atrocious.

I'll take the first two seasons of DS9 and VOY over ENT.

Also I'll excuse TNG's first two seasons since it was the first modern Trek series. They were still learning how to do Trek without Kirk and Spock. Even as bad as the first two seasons were, we got a few classic episodes like 11001001, Datalore, Conspiracy, Elementary Dear Data, The Measure of a Man, and Q Who.

I can't remember anything about the first two seasons of Enterprise except for the horrible A Night in Sickbay episode and how bored I was through the first two years.

[Admiral James Kirk]

los2188 wrote:

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I was talking to my wife the other day and she brought up the question as to whether or not Insurrection or Nemesis killed the TNG movie franchise. I happen to think it was Insurrection. I mean after that movie, it was decided that basically they were going to make one more TNG movie, and that's all. For all the Nemesis hate we have (most of it justifiably so), Insurrection seemed to be the one that turned the franchise down the tubes so to speak. I do admit that it must have been hard for Insurrection to live up to the hype because it had to follow First Contact.

You are correct. It was Insurrection that killed the TNG movie franchise. At least for me. I so hated Insurrection that I didn't even bother to go see Nemesis until after it was out on DVD. Insurrection coupled with Voyager and Enterprise put me completely off of Trek and that ain't easy to admit. I've been a fan since I was two years old but I was goddamned if I was gonna stay a fan because the quality had fallen so goddamn low.

Thankfully JJ brought me back to the fold...

[NrobbieC]

Dream wrote:

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I'll take the first two seasons of DS9 and VOY over ENT.

Also I'll excuse TNG's first two seasons since it was the first modern Trek series. They were still learning how to do Trek without Kirk and Spock. Even as bad as the first two seasons were, we got a few classic episodes like 11001001, Datalore, Conspiracy, Elementary Dear Data, The Measure of a Man, and Q Who.

I can't remember anything about the first two seasons of Enterprise except for the horrible A Night in Sickbay episode and how bored I was through the first two years.

I like A Night in Sickbay personally.
That's a few more than I would've put for TNG.

Personally the way I sort of rank the series' are 1st and 2nd seasons of TNG, DS9 and VOY are nothing special but may have a few very good episodes in there somewhere (though for TNG that's only like 2). 1st and 2nd seasons of ENT and 3rd season of TNG, DS9 and VOY are hit and miss, some great episodes, some pretty bad episodes. 3rd and 4th seasons of ENT, 4th season onwards of TNG, DS9 and VOY is when they really hit their stride. I just don't like TOS.

But to each their own, we're quite far off topic.

[Therin of Andor]

SchwEnt wrote:

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if Nemesis was a hit and more TNG would have come... how could it be?

A movie (or new TV series), set on the USS Titan, with a combo cast of characters whose actors are on record as saying they would have gladly have done more Trek:

Riker, Troi, perhaps Worf (although Dorn was concerned about a skin reaction he'd suffered from years of appliance makeup application), Bashir, Ezri, Tuvok, Icheb.

[T'Girl]

NrobbieC wrote:

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Archer's still better than Kirk.

James Kirk would have beat up and captured Archer.

[AllStarEntprise]

los2188 wrote:

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Well from the responses, it looks to be almost 50/50 as to whether or not Insurrection killed the TNG movie franchise. I have no doubt in my mind that had Insurrection been well received and made more money, Nemesis might not have been "A Generation's Final Journey." I still have a feeling of an incompleteness to the TNG franchise. Let me pose this question...after First Contact, why would they change movie styles to go to a light and fun movie? I was much of an internet guy back then, but was there a huge backlash or desire from the fans to go back to a TNG-TV style of movie??

To answer your question since everyone else is ignoring it. Michael Piller wanted a softer story after the go get'em action film that was First Contact according to Rick Berman. Michael Piller who had written iconic episodes such as TNG The Enemy, Yesterday's Enterprise, Best of Both Worlds part 1 and 2, Unification part 1 and 2, Time Arrow and helped launch DS9 and VOY. Originally Piller wanted to do a Heart of Darkness type movie which would've had Picard lose everything, his ship, crew, rank. Picard was also going to kill Data. Data was going to go haywire like he did in INS protecting the Bak'u only in the original draft the race that became "Bak'u" at the writing level were all going to be children. Picard would discover Data's cause for fighting against the Federation after he shot him and discover the "Bak'u" children.

It was really dark story, Berman and the Studio both had the same reaction that this isn't what a Star Trek movie should be. So Piller changed it and made it a lighter upbeat movie. Designed to be used as a floatation device in the event of a water landing jokes and all.

[Dream]

What sucked the most about Insurrection wasn't that the writing was mediocre, but the story wasn't BIG enough. If I'm going to pay to see a Trek movie on the big screen, I expect to see important shit happening.

Generations had the Ent-D crashing and Data finally using the emotion chip, FC had the Borg invasion of Earth and also Warp Drive being used the first time, and even Nemesis had the whole destroy Earth plot even if it wasn't that good. Insurrection felt too much like a bad two parter from the tv show.