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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old September 19 2012, 02:26 AM   #16
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Religion & DS9

I really don't consider "In the Hands of the Prophets" to be much better than "Who Watches the Watchers," except for the fact that we did get two statements of tolerance that we never would've seen in TNG: Sisko's reprimand to his son for dismissing the Bajorans, and Bareil's brief mention of the fact that some Bajorans are perfectly okay with science and do not find it threatening at all to their faith.

That, at least, does raise DS9's controversial episode above TNG's.
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Old September 19 2012, 11:40 AM   #17
Nightdiamond
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Re: Religion & DS9

I liked it a little better than TNG's take on religion, because so many of their episodes had the same idea again and again.

TNG usually stuck with the "poor superstitious primitives" routine with the ultimate ending, 'religion is usually bad or for the naive'.

It was really strong in the first 4 seasons.

Ds9 got more into the meat of the topic. particularly with that awkward scene between Winn and Keiko in the classroom.

Ahead of its time, since there seems to be a revival of this topic in real life right now.

It funny how the Bajorans don't have to question the reality of the beings they worship.

But they have to question whether they're being ignorant of worshiping aliens who are simply advanced life forms, who are barely aware of their existence.
That made them appear very naive and childlike at times.

And then you got "Accession" where they reinstated the Bajoran caste system.

One Bajoran pushes priest off a ledge killing him, because he belonged to an unclean caste, and refused to resign.

And He admitted it calmly as if he was explaining what he had just eaten for breakfast.
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Old September 19 2012, 12:38 PM   #18
JarodRussell
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Re: Religion & DS9

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Ahead of its time, since there seems to be a revival of this topic in real life right now.

It funny how the Bajorans don't have to question the reality of the beings they worship.

But they have to question whether they're being ignorant of worshiping aliens who are simply advanced life forms, who are barely aware of their existence.
That made them appear very naive and childlike at times.

And then you got "Accession" where they reinstated the Bajoran caste system.

One Bajoran pushes priest off a ledge killing him, because he belonged to an unclean caste, and refused to resign.

And He admitted it calmly as if he was explaining what he had just eaten for breakfast.
That's unfortunately how it is in real life as well, isn't it.
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Old September 21 2012, 01:47 AM   #19
Distorted Humor
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Re: Religion & DS9

I like "Hands of the Prophets" as I am a deeply religious person who has no problem with Science and my faith. It always annoys me that those who do not have faith assume that I do not believe in science. That throwaway line endeared me to the episode.
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Old September 21 2012, 07:38 AM   #20
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Re: Religion & DS9

Doesnt Trek say that basically everybod/every race can evolve into energy beings?
I wonder how the bad eneergy beings came to be like Nagilum.
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Old September 21 2012, 10:00 AM   #21
Nightdiamond
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Re: Religion & DS9

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
That's unfortunately how it is in real life as well, isn't it.
Right now there's yet another round of debates going on about teaching evolution or creationism in schools--particularly in the midwest.

The main problem besides a dozen others is that it assumes that only the Judeo/christian version of creation should be taught taught as opposed to say the Hindu or New Age version of how the universe was created.


Distorted Humor wrote: View Post
I like "Hands of the Prophets" as I am a deeply religious person who has no problem with Science and my faith. It always annoys me that those who do not have faith assume that I do not believe in science. That throwaway line endeared me to the episode.
The funny thing with DS9 and the Bajorans, is that it's not a matter of wondering whether the "Prophets" exist, it's whether to address them by their religious title, or Starfleet's scientific designation.

I could never understand why Winn was so upset over the religious terminology.

At least I would be happy to know that the higher power I was taught to believe in, actually exists with an actual location I could find


Drago-Kazov wrote: View Post
Doesnt Trek say that basically everybod/every race can evolve into energy beings?
I wonder how the bad eneergy beings came to be like Nagilum.
I always thought the idea was cool.

I think that's Trek's version of salvation--heck, it's their only version of salvation.

Trek is some ways has a deeply materialistic and atheistic view.

They repeatedly say humans in the 24th century solved their problems and created paradise without any aid from religion or the 'gods'.

So it seems that their only other slavation is for humans to one day evolve into some higher life form.

It looks like evolution doesn't care about the morals of the creatures that evolve. There seem to be a lot of evil, nasty beings that have evolved beyond humanoids.

Last edited by Nightdiamond; September 21 2012 at 10:11 AM.
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Old September 21 2012, 04:08 PM   #22
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Re: Religion & DS9

it dealt with religion yes, but not in a way that applies well to real-world ways. As others have pointed out, Bajor's "prophets" were actually powerful energy beings that did intervene in galactic affairs, so the whole "faith" issue is discarded. You don't need "faith," you saw them make 2800 Dominion ships disappear.

Also, I didn't like the way that they retconned Sisko into half-Prophet. Ira Behr seems proud of that decision, I think it was stupid and changes a lot of early DS9 stuff, like "Emissary."
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Old September 21 2012, 04:30 PM   #23
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Re: Religion & DS9

sonak wrote: View Post
it dealt with religion yes, but not in a way that applies well to real-world ways. As others have pointed out, Bajor's "prophets" were actually powerful energy beings that did intervene in galactic affairs, so the whole "faith" issue is discarded. You don't need "faith," you saw them make 2800 Dominion ships disappear.
To some religious people though, a god did actually intervene in several ways in the past.
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Old September 21 2012, 04:53 PM   #24
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Re: Religion & DS9

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
it dealt with religion yes, but not in a way that applies well to real-world ways. As others have pointed out, Bajor's "prophets" were actually powerful energy beings that did intervene in galactic affairs, so the whole "faith" issue is discarded. You don't need "faith," you saw them make 2800 Dominion ships disappear.
To some religious people though, a god did actually intervene in several ways in the past.

right, but there's no actual proof of any of it. DS9 has disappearing Dominion ships on its logs, as well as the fight between Prophet Kira and pah-wraith Jake. There are living witnesses and recordings of events involving the prophets.
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Old September 21 2012, 04:56 PM   #25
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Re: Religion & DS9

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
it dealt with religion yes, but not in a way that applies well to real-world ways. As others have pointed out, Bajor's "prophets" were actually powerful energy beings that did intervene in galactic affairs, so the whole "faith" issue is discarded. You don't need "faith," you saw them make 2800 Dominion ships disappear.
To some religious people though, a god did actually intervene in several ways in the past.
Yeah, but there's no proof.

The Bajoran's have the tears of the prophets, which are obviously real and obviously have the abilities of giving you visions or making you travel through time. Their "religion" is very much grounded in reality. They KNOW their gods exists, instead of simply believing it.

The religious part chimes in when they decide that the wormhole aliens are their gods and that they need to worship them, even though the Prophets don't care if those folks visit their temples or not.
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Old September 21 2012, 11:39 PM   #26
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Re: Religion & DS9

For some, the only proof they need is the Bible. Some believe that all of these things did happen back then. That may not be good enough for you and me, but it is for them, and they might see it as analogous.

And according to Star Trek, Apollo was a real dude.
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Old September 22 2012, 01:03 AM   #27
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Re: Religion & DS9

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
For some, the only proof they need is the Bible. Some believe that all of these things did happen back then. That may not be good enough for you and me, but it is for them, and they might see it as analogous.

And according to Star Trek, Apollo was a real dude.

but again, it requires faith to believe the miracles of the Bible.(especially since modern archaeological and scientific evidence disputes parts of the Bible already)


But the stuff the Prophets do is witnessed and recorded and verified by many. That's why the parallels don't really work for me.

I mean, yeah, the "faith" part can be whether the Prophets are actually Gods or not, but not whether they exist or act in the galaxy.
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Old September 22 2012, 03:50 AM   #28
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Re: Religion & DS9

Distorted Humor wrote: View Post
I like "Hands of the Prophets" as I am a deeply religious person who has no problem with Science and my faith. It always annoys me that those who do not have faith assume that I do not believe in science.
Same here - and l studied science for years at a secular university.

But DS9 was realistic - there are "good" (for want of a better term... since that's relative and vague) religious people and there are bad (violent and intolerant)... the same for atheists or agnostics.

Really - the world would be a better place - with less hunger and starvation and rape and murder and abuse if people respected each other in general. And that's what the people in the nice parts of the ST universe have. Because of tolerance and cooperation... even if it's not perfect.

And people only have themselves as individuals to blame for earth not being that way - they control their actions and how many people are that cut off that they can't realize those things are wrong no matter how they're brought up? lf people didn't follow the crazies... they'd be a ranting loner minority and... bad examples?
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Old September 22 2012, 04:19 AM   #29
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Religion & DS9

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Yeah, but there's no proof.

The Bajoran's have the tears of the prophets, which are obviously real and obviously have the abilities of giving you visions or making you travel through time. Their "religion" is very much grounded in reality. They KNOW their gods exists, instead of simply believing it.

The religious part chimes in when they decide that the wormhole aliens are their gods and that they need to worship them, even though the Prophets don't care if those folks visit their temples or not.
This may be an incorrect comparison, so sorry if it isn't right, but there are those who believe that psychedelics such as peyote are a sacred gift and put one in communion with the divine.

Peyote, for instance, is a real, documented plant. Its effects are partially measurable in that we can detect changes in the brain and behavior as a result of ingesting it. The experience of peyote and the significance of it, though, can't be experimented on in a scientific manner because it's experiential evidence rather than tangible evidence.

The choice to believe that a peyote-induced vision is divine is a religious one that a person makes--even though the existence and scientific effects of peyote are quite well known, this is still the case.
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Old September 22 2012, 04:32 AM   #30
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Re: Religion & DS9

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Yeah, but there's no proof.

The Bajoran's have the tears of the prophets, which are obviously real and obviously have the abilities of giving you visions or making you travel through time. Their "religion" is very much grounded in reality. They KNOW their gods exists, instead of simply believing it.

The religious part chimes in when they decide that the wormhole aliens are their gods and that they need to worship them, even though the Prophets don't care if those folks visit their temples or not.
This may be an incorrect comparison, so sorry if it isn't right, but there are those who believe that psychedelics such as peyote are a sacred gift and put one in communion with the divine.

Peyote, for instance, is a real, documented plant. Its effects are partially measurable in that we can detect changes in the brain and behavior as a result of ingesting it. The experience of peyote and the significance of it, though, can't be experimented on in a scientific manner because it's experiential evidence rather than tangible evidence.

The choice to believe that a peyote-induced vision is divine is a religious one that a person makes--even though the existence and scientific effects of peyote are quite well known, this is still the case.
I think that's a fine analogy, actually. The writers seemed aware of it, too. For example, in Accession the "orb shadow" sounds very much like an hallucinogen flashback.

However, the references in DS9 to faith generally sound very much like they are intended to be taken as metaphors for Christian faith.
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