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Old September 19 2012, 06:53 PM   #31
Timo
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Re: Galileo 7 – Was it Boma, Spock or is it me?

Well, clearly you've forgotten the time frame. It's no more than 2 days.
...After which Kirk can trivially return. In a week.

Kirk can also choose not to depart, for that matter. Or to leave shuttles behind to search for the survivors. The castaways are not left to their own devices by any stretch of imagination: their discovery is only a matter of time.

Well, sensibly speaking any energy weapon has a charge limit, so it's only logical to assume they are discharged in use and faster with higher settings.
Quite so - but "Omega Glory" shows us the orders of magnitude involved, so this doesn't appear to really be a problem.

Spock could also always decide to use one phaser for effective defense and only drain the rest, which would mean leaving one further person behind. He was prepared to do that from the very start, remember.

You're forgetting that there are at least three lethal phaser settings.
To the contrary, I'm using it as an explanation as to why there are hundreds of bodies standing as evidence for thousands of kills...

There's no "partial" vaporization ever shown in TOS, TNG, or DS9.
There are in DS9 some settings that kill by leaving visible scorch marks, though. These in addition to the settings that kill without leaving a mark, and those that kill without leaving a body.

If you stick to that argument, forget about making any assumptions beyond what is stated in the episode, something you've taken great liberty of in many, many other discussions.
Touche. But my point here is that energy conservation is an offscreen excuse we can use for explaining Spock's odd choices; it's not something that automatically dictates that Spock made a right choice.

Spock knew that the effects of the Murasaki quasar would make a search nearly fruitless.
Which would mean the shuttle would be all the less likely to be found if it were taken away from the planet! Its visibility would only increase if Spock did that flare trick - and it appeared to be an afterthought only. Spock could just as well have concentrated on setting up a comparable flare on the surface of the planet, which he knew would be under scrutiny already, Murasaki effect or not.

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Old September 19 2012, 07:21 PM   #32
Gary7
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Re: Galileo 7 – Was it Boma, Spock or is it me?

Timo wrote: View Post
Well, clearly you've forgotten the time frame. It's no more than 2 days.
...After which Kirk can trivially return. In a week.
Trivially? He has no idea of the status of the landing party. They could be dead, severely injured, or struggling to survive. The best case scenario is that they found intelligent life who would help them, but that's highly unlikely. Going away for a week would mean certain death if they were still alive. You die without water in 3-5 days.

Timo wrote: View Post
Kirk can also choose not to depart, for that matter. Or to leave shuttles behind to search for the survivors. The castaways are not left to their own devices by any stretch of imagination: their discovery is only a matter of time.
Kirk must leave, and does what he can to deliberately delay it until the only choice would be to risk a court martial offense. Leaving behind several shuttles having to deal with all of the ionic interference and NO back-up could easily result in a bunch more stranded shuttles. That's not a wise option.

Timo wrote: View Post
Well, sensibly speaking any energy weapon has a charge limit, so it's only logical to assume they are discharged in use and faster with higher settings.
Quite so - but "Omega Glory" shows us the orders of magnitude involved, so this doesn't appear to really be a problem.
Order of magnitude IS a problem. Clearly they haven't been able to fend off the creatures given the power settings they were using. I highly doubt primitive shields made of wood and thick hides are phaser resistant. It may be the environmental conditions were making the phasers less effective, but that's just heaping on more speculation.

Timo wrote: View Post
Spock could also always decide to use one phaser for effective defense and only drain the rest, which would mean leaving one further person behind. He was prepared to do that from the very start, remember.
Yes, but it became clear they needed EVERY phaser on hand after Scotty's mistake.

Timo wrote: View Post
Spock knew that the effects of the Murasaki quasar would make a search nearly fruitless.
Which would mean the shuttle would be all the less likely to be found if it were taken away from the planet! Its visibility would only increase if Spock did that flare trick - and it appeared to be an afterthought only. Spock could just as well have concentrated on setting up a comparable flare on the surface of the planet, which he knew would be under scrutiny already, Murasaki effect or not.
Are you kidding? A shuttle in orbit is far more detectable than one on the ground. By the time they got in orbit, the Enterprise had already departed albeit slowly. Due to the distance, the flare was the only thing that caught their attention. Had the Enterprise not left, the odds of detecting them in orbit would have been much greater.
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Old September 19 2012, 07:47 PM   #33
ssosmcin
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Re: Galileo 7 – Was it Boma, Spock or is it me?

Timo wrote: View Post
The only factor really threatening the survival of the castaways on the planet was a bunch of cavemen.
GIANT cavemen. With super human strength. They were the main and most deadly threat, yes.

But why should the cavemen be a threat?
Sometimes it feels like we aren't talking about the same episode.

I'm not gonna keep going around on this, but you are assuming these natives are just one tribe of a small number. And that Spock and the remaining four officers can hold them off with phasers and fend off starvation by licking rocks. However, within the episode, the implication is the "apes" are legion. Kelowitz, confirms this by reporting they are all over the place. There was no escaping them on the planet and there could be an entire civilization of these beings. We don't know, so we go with what we're given, which is constant, imminent threat of death by giant creatures with greater strength and ferocity. Nobody in their right mind would delay trying to leave when faced with that.

Yes, you could suggest that Kirk could have left shuttles behind. But he didn't, he called everyone back. He also seemed to only have one more, the Columbus. Which was weird.

The sensors were iffy, but it's logical to assume the Enterprise would also be scanning visually. Yes, the flare was unplanned, but when faced with certain painful death on the planet, the next option would be to head into orbit and play it by ear. The original idea was to get into orbit and hope that in the few hours they had, the Enterprise was still scanning for them. When Spock cut in the boosters, he cut the time back. When he jettisoned the fuel, he really whittled it down to six minutes. But he got them saved. He improvised. Sometimes playing it by ear is the right course of action. Staying on the planet would have cost lives. The script made no doubt of this.

Since I'm repeating myself, I think I'm done on this one.

Timo wrote: View Post
Why not? A clean kill in TOS does not leave a body!
Anton Karidian.

Gary7 wrote: View Post
There's no "partial" vaporization ever shown in TOS, TNG, or DS9. If you're touched by the beam on the highest setting, you vaporize.
Lt Commander Remmick in "Conspiracy" was reduced to a half disintegrated husk.
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Old September 19 2012, 10:12 PM   #34
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Re: Galileo 7 – Was it Boma, Spock or is it me?

''A clean kill in TOS does not leave a body!''

Kodos/Karidian: ''Now they tell me.''
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Old September 20 2012, 04:43 AM   #35
JimZipCode
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Re: Galileo 7 – Was it Boma, Spock or is it me?

Lt. Zanne wrote: View Post
Spock always said he never wanted command, never wanted to be captain, etc. I think he knew he was not really cut out for that type of position.
...the episode was exploring what it took to command ~ not just superior knowledge and ability to make decisions, but an ability to read and understand people - not just human - because Spock mis read not just his crew, but the species that lived on the planet and attacked them.
Uneven writing. Spock shows much more awareness of the nuances of command in some of the earliest episodes: Corbomite, and Enemy Within. Spock in Corbomite and Balance of Terror (more so in Corbomite) also showed an ability to "read" aliens, anticipate how their tactical actions would be perceived.
(I'm thinking of Spock's comment about "flypaper" in Corbomite, and his insistence in Balance that the Romulans must not be allowed to get back home and trumpet their success.)

The Spock from those early episodes was quite capable of command. The Spock from many of the later episodes was not. To me, that is a loss, a depletion of his character

Lt. Zanne wrote:
Also too, there was at times in other episodes, an underlying understanding that Spock was discriminated against because he was half Vulcan and I thought that was partly why the Galileo crew was not respectful of him.
Like Stiles in Balance of Terror? Rough stuff.

That would mean that the Enterprise senior officers had that kind of bigotry in them. I have some trouble swallowing that. Also, the Federation itself seems to be without a streak of institutional bigotry. They have (had) a starship crewed entirely by Vulcans. Later, M'ress was a respected officer. Stiles stands out from the other officers and crew, which implies that his bigotry was an exception.

I don't know if you're right about that. Do you have other examples?
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Old September 20 2012, 12:10 PM   #36
Timo
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Re: Galileo 7 – Was it Boma, Spock or is it me?

You are assuming these natives are just one tribe of a small number.
Cavemen always are. Of course, the episode could be taken to describe an unrealistic situation if we want to. But only if we want to.

And that Spock and the remaining four officers can hold them off with phasers
Five people with phasers always can. Of course, the episode could be taken to describe a situation atypical of Star Trek if we want to. But only if we want to.

fend off starvation by licking rocks
Starvation is rarely an issue for a group of healthy people, as long as they have warmth, shelter and water. The location provided water, the shuttle provided warmth and shelter.

Many survival stories get such things wrong. Our heroes faced barely any hardships at all, save for cavemen. And cavemen should be a known quantity when they so conveniently follow Earth patterns, with Folsom points and whatnot.

There was no escaping them on the planet and there could be an entire civilization of these beings. We don't know, so we go with what we're given, which is constant, imminent threat of death by giant creatures with greater strength and ferocity.
What we really are given is three or four angry men throwing spears and rocks at strangers when the opportunity arises, and a supposed sighting of some more of the species. If these are cavemen, they should cease to be a threat simply enough - by killing a few of them.

Yes, you could suggest that Kirk could have left shuttles behind. But he didn't, he called everyone back. He also seemed to only have one more, the Columbus. Which was weird.
Not necessarily - the vulnerability of a shuttle was the reason for the emergency in the first place, so Kirk might hold back there. But it would be an option he would grow bolder with, given the initial success.

Sometimes playing it by ear is the right course of action. Staying on the planet would have cost lives. The script made no doubt of this.
Oh, I'm not in disagreement with that. I'm just saying that the script was implausible, and that all the implausibilities that manifested in the episode based on the script fell squarely on the shoulders of Spock who was making seemingly irrational decisions and finally triumphing against all reason. Which is weird, because Spock was supposed to be the rational guy.

Anton Karidian.
That's neither here nor there, because the point is that a kill can make a body disappear, and predominantly does. That sometimes a corpse is left is actually a good thing for the argument, as it explains the battlefield in "Omega Glory".

Although as a side note, it would make sense for Lenore to kill her father with a phaser set on heavy stun, as supposedly unauthorized firings at stun settings do not trigger internal sensors, yet at kill settings they do. That is, they trigger an alarm in ST6, and if we interpret "Conscience of the King" this way, ST6 never really gets contradicted.

To kill Kirk that way, Lenore would have to walk right next to him and push the trigger a few times, which may well have been her plan; an initial shot from a distance would make things easier. But the frail Anton would die from a faraway stun shot, too.

Also, the Federation itself seems to be without a streak of institutional bigotry. They have (had) a starship crewed entirely by Vulcans.
The United States had all-black military formations at a time when institutional bigotry was in evidence - indeed, those formations were the evidence!

Stiles stands out from the other officers and crew, which implies that his bigotry was an exception.
Or that each officer has his or her particular choice for hatred (such as with Chekov and Klingons), and Romulans were Stiles' hot button.

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Old September 20 2012, 05:50 PM   #37
Gary7
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Re: Galileo 7 – Was it Boma, Spock or is it me?

Timo wrote: View Post
You are assuming these natives are just one tribe of a small number.
Cavemen always are. [ these are aliens not humans; what are you thinking?] Of course, the episode could be taken to describe an unrealistic situation if we want to. But only if we want to.
?
Timo wrote: View Post
And that Spock and the remaining four officers can hold them off with phasers
Five people with phasers always can. [ what are you smoking? they couldn't hold them off and retreated into the shuttle] Of course, the episode could be taken to describe a situation atypical of Star Trek if we want to. But only if we want to.
?
Timo wrote: View Post
Starvation is rarely an issue for a group of healthy people, as long as they have warmth, shelter and water. The location provided water [ the word "water" was never mentioned in the episode], the shuttle provided warmth and shelter.
?
Timo wrote: View Post
What we really are given is three or four angry men throwing spears and rocks at strangers when the opportunity arises, and a supposed sighting of some more of the species. If these are cavemen, they should cease to be a threat simply enough - by killing a few of them.
?


I'm sorry, but you seem extremely hard pressed to concede anything at all when logic stands squarely in your face, to the point of stating unqualified generalities or inventing facts. When debating with you on the same position, it's great because you stick to logic and plausible extrapolations. Otherwise, it's a quagmire of frustration that leads to nowhere because of your insistence to be contradictory at all costs. You can't debate with someone when they turn away from sensible logic and then start making things up. I'm done here...
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Old September 20 2012, 06:00 PM   #38
Grant
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Re: Galileo 7 – Was it Boma, Spock or is it me?

Timo wrote: View Post
Sure, Kirk could have come back and extracted the seven corpses.
The fundamental fact of the matter is that humans cannot survive in space, or in ballistic flight. In contrast, humans can survive on the surface of a Class M planet for an indeterminate period of time, that is, a period not subject to countdowns of any rational sort. For a week, a human could survive on nothing but water licked off moist rocks, in bountiful supply at the crash site!

The only factor really threatening the survival of the castaways on the planet was a bunch of cavemen. But why should the cavemen be a threat? There was no evidence of them being organized or united. Unlike the savage hordes of Cloud William, they would have no cultural animosity towards the exotic arrivals. If they were in any way humanlike, they would have no concept of armies at this stage of cultural development, no experience in campaigns, and no interest in territorial squabbles. Our heroes weren't sitting on a coveted local resource - they were occupying wasteland, the dwellers of which would be sorry outcasts indeed by local standards.

The response of people like this to a deadly threat would in all likelihood have been a cautious retreat. But even a full-blown suicide assault would have done nothing but eradicated the threat posed by the very small mountain tribe eking out a living there. The key would be to stop sending human sacrifices to the locals, and to set up a camp of civilized people.

Spock was acting alarmingly irrationally here, perhaps due to his human half overruling his Vulcan one, perhaps out of misguided (and misunderstood) concern for his human companions' feelings. Unless his aim indeed was a swift, fiery death for everybody, as opposed to the assured survival of some until inevitable rescue. But he himself claimed he would not be that egalitarian in his decisions of life and death.

Timo Saloniemi
I hate to say it, but I agree with this 100%.
Spock (via the writers) was ridiculous in this episode.

"Shoot to frighten." ???

Showing a bunch of ape-men that you have some kind of 'fire-stick' that misses what it's being shot at. They would have no concept of shoot to frighten. Purposely missing them makes the ape folk think they are weak.

At least blasting one of them with the (already established)heavy stun setting is way better.
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Old September 20 2012, 08:54 PM   #39
Mr_Homn
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Re: Galileo 7 – Was it Boma, Spock or is it me?

Grant wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
Sure, Kirk could have come back and extracted the seven corpses.
The fundamental fact of the matter is that humans cannot survive in space, or in ballistic flight. In contrast, humans can survive on the surface of a Class M planet for an indeterminate period of time, that is, a period not subject to countdowns of any rational sort. For a week, a human could survive on nothing but water licked off moist rocks, in bountiful supply at the crash site!

The only factor really threatening the survival of the castaways on the planet was a bunch of cavemen. But why should the cavemen be a threat? There was no evidence of them being organized or united. Unlike the savage hordes of Cloud William, they would have no cultural animosity towards the exotic arrivals. If they were in any way humanlike, they would have no concept of armies at this stage of cultural development, no experience in campaigns, and no interest in territorial squabbles. Our heroes weren't sitting on a coveted local resource - they were occupying wasteland, the dwellers of which would be sorry outcasts indeed by local standards.

The response of people like this to a deadly threat would in all likelihood have been a cautious retreat. But even a full-blown suicide assault would have done nothing but eradicated the threat posed by the very small mountain tribe eking out a living there. The key would be to stop sending human sacrifices to the locals, and to set up a camp of civilized people.

Spock was acting alarmingly irrationally here, perhaps due to his human half overruling his Vulcan one, perhaps out of misguided (and misunderstood) concern for his human companions' feelings. Unless his aim indeed was a swift, fiery death for everybody, as opposed to the assured survival of some until inevitable rescue. But he himself claimed he would not be that egalitarian in his decisions of life and death.

Timo Saloniemi
I hate to say it, but I agree with this 100%.
Spock (via the writers) was ridiculous in this episode.

"Shoot to frighten." ???

Showing a bunch of ape-men that you have some kind of 'fire-stick' that misses what it's being shot at. They would have no concept of shoot to frighten. Purposely missing them makes the ape folk think they are weak.

At least blasting one of them with the (already established)heavy stun setting is way better.
while not attempting to use the stun is an oversight of the writers, it might be better to just imagine in your head that they found out the stun setting doesn't work on these creatures, and it was determined off screen. Cop-out, I know, but they could have easily have said that in the episode and we all would have bought it. then everything else is the same
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Old September 20 2012, 09:51 PM   #40
Grant
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Re: Galileo 7 – Was it Boma, Spock or is it me?

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Grant wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
The fundamental fact of the matter is that humans cannot survive in space, or in ballistic flight. In contrast, humans can survive on the surface of a Class M planet for an indeterminate period of time, that is, a period not subject to countdowns of any rational sort. For a week, a human could survive on nothing but water licked off moist rocks, in bountiful supply at the crash site!

The only factor really threatening the survival of the castaways on the planet was a bunch of cavemen. But why should the cavemen be a threat? There was no evidence of them being organized or united. Unlike the savage hordes of Cloud William, they would have no cultural animosity towards the exotic arrivals. If they were in any way humanlike, they would have no concept of armies at this stage of cultural development, no experience in campaigns, and no interest in territorial squabbles. Our heroes weren't sitting on a coveted local resource - they were occupying wasteland, the dwellers of which would be sorry outcasts indeed by local standards.

The response of people like this to a deadly threat would in all likelihood have been a cautious retreat. But even a full-blown suicide assault would have done nothing but eradicated the threat posed by the very small mountain tribe eking out a living there. The key would be to stop sending human sacrifices to the locals, and to set up a camp of civilized people.

Spock was acting alarmingly irrationally here, perhaps due to his human half overruling his Vulcan one, perhaps out of misguided (and misunderstood) concern for his human companions' feelings. Unless his aim indeed was a swift, fiery death for everybody, as opposed to the assured survival of some until inevitable rescue. But he himself claimed he would not be that egalitarian in his decisions of life and death.

Timo Saloniemi
I hate to say it, but I agree with this 100%.
Spock (via the writers) was ridiculous in this episode.

"Shoot to frighten." ???

Showing a bunch of ape-men that you have some kind of 'fire-stick' that misses what it's being shot at. They would have no concept of shoot to frighten. Purposely missing them makes the ape folk think they are weak.

At least blasting one of them with the (already established)heavy stun setting is way better.
while not attempting to use the stun is an oversight of the writers, it might be better to just imagine in your head that they found out the stun setting doesn't work on these creatures, and it was determined off screen. Cop-out, I know, but they could have easily have said that in the episode and we all would have bought it. then everything else is the same

Then shoot to kill, one of them or the remaining 6 of us.--regretable OR

disintegrate some rocks or whatnot to show the primatives what the weapons can do.

Basically you don't impress the enemy by missing.
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Old September 20 2012, 10:09 PM   #41
Delta Vega
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Re: Galileo 7 – Was it Boma, Spock or is it me?

Grant wrote: View Post
Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Grant wrote: View Post
I hate to say it, but I agree with this 100%.
Spock (via the writers) was ridiculous in this episode.

"Shoot to frighten." ???

Showing a bunch of ape-men that you have some kind of 'fire-stick' that misses what it's being shot at. They would have no concept of shoot to frighten. Purposely missing them makes the ape folk think they are weak.

At least blasting one of them with the (already established)heavy stun setting is way better.
while not attempting to use the stun is an oversight of the writers, it might be better to just imagine in your head that they found out the stun setting doesn't work on these creatures, and it was determined off screen. Cop-out, I know, but they could have easily have said that in the episode and we all would have bought it. then everything else is the same

Then shoot to kill, one of them or the remaining 6 of us.--regretable OR

disintegrate some rocks or whatnot to show the primatives what the weapons can do.

Basically you don't impress the enemy by missing.
Agree with this

Never understood in this episode why the vapourisation setting wasnt used to put the shits into the locals.

A sort of "Dont mess with us, or your vapour" warning.
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Old September 20 2012, 10:10 PM   #42
Mr_Homn
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Re: Galileo 7 – Was it Boma, Spock or is it me?

Grant wrote: View Post
Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Grant wrote: View Post
I hate to say it, but I agree with this 100%.
Spock (via the writers) was ridiculous in this episode.

"Shoot to frighten." ???

Showing a bunch of ape-men that you have some kind of 'fire-stick' that misses what it's being shot at. They would have no concept of shoot to frighten. Purposely missing them makes the ape folk think they are weak.

At least blasting one of them with the (already established)heavy stun setting is way better.
while not attempting to use the stun is an oversight of the writers, it might be better to just imagine in your head that they found out the stun setting doesn't work on these creatures, and it was determined off screen. Cop-out, I know, but they could have easily have said that in the episode and we all would have bought it. then everything else is the same

Then shoot to kill, one of them or the remaining 6 of us.--regretable OR

disintegrate some rocks or whatnot to show the primatives what the weapons can do.

Basically you don't impress the enemy by missing.
Starfleet, especially a Vulcan, isn't going to just shoot to kill some unknown intelligent lifeform, especially when you are intruding on their planet (willingly or not)

They could have disintegrated some rocks, but it probably wouldn't have made any difference, really. Would have been a good thing to try, though.
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Old September 21 2012, 12:04 AM   #43
Gary7
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Re: Galileo 7 – Was it Boma, Spock or is it me?

^ The only exception I take on that is when your life is in danger. If a hostile alien life form wants to kill you, you have to defend yourself regardless of whether you are an intruder. True, if there's no means to communicate that there's no hostile intention, you still don't want to kill them outright, hoping you might be able to neutralize the situation... but they killed several crew members. I think vaporizing a shield or weapon of theirs would scare the living daylights out of them. They are intelligent, yet they are primitive with a very low tech existence. The tech possessed by the landing party would be magic in their eyes, something to fear if it proved powerful enough to make something of theirs disappear in a fire ball flash.

Some of what I don't like about the episode I chalk up to a limited budget. This was the first time they were using the shuttlecraft, an enormously expensive prop. I do wonder if this was weighed into the cost of the episode or amortized across the entire life of the series as a "long term" prop. But in any case, we see very little in the way of special effects where the phasers are concerned. Just a few beams here and there, no exposure of the result (phaser burns or vaporized objects). They may not have had enough SFX budget to show, thus they conveniently left this out. So instead, there's this thick mist where you can't see your enemy, then suddenly they emerge and launch a spear into your gut before you can fire your phaser at them.
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Old September 21 2012, 01:53 AM   #44
Grant
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Re: Galileo 7 – Was it Boma, Spock or is it me?

I think the writer basically made both Spock and the crew look like fools. It's not phaser or getting into orbit or any of that. The writer made Spock this clueless tunnel vision creature and then had the crew react like insobordinate jerks.

You can't defend too many of Spock's actions in this episode unless you resort to making excuses for the inconsistancies.

"They tried heavy stun--it didn't work!"

c'mon it's bad writing. great concept for an episode though.
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Old September 21 2012, 03:19 AM   #45
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Re: Galileo 7 – Was it Boma, Spock or is it me?

Grant wrote: View Post
You can't defend too many of Spock's actions in this episode unless you resort to making excuses for the inconsistancies.
Lol, welcome to star trek. Making excuses for inconsistencies is the name of the game.

And, like I said, while it's obviously an oversight by the writers, it's really not a leap to think that stun may just not have been effective. We've seen it Trek since then.

An even more absurd aspect of this episode, that hasn't really been addressed in this thread, is the idea that this is Spock's first time in command of a mission. Really? A first officer of one of the federation's best ships that's never even been in command of a routine shuttle mission?

Take the episode for what it is, it's a first season episode, the 14th episode of trek ever produced, and like many first season episodes(of all the star trek series), there are inconsistencies and errors. TOS had the best first season of any Trek, but they were still figuring things out.
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