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Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

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Old September 19 2012, 11:18 AM   #31
larryman
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Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say

I would like to know why Mr. Harold White states that the ship must be in the shape of a 'football' - pointed on each end (as shown in the image). It would seem to me that the ship (proper) could be any shape. The shape of the exotic matter torus would have effect on the warp bubble function. But, the ship is within a 'contained' normal space-time, inside of the warp bubble. So... why would a sphere, a cube, or any other shape of ship not work inside of the exotic matter warp torus? Normal space-time is passed 'around' the outside of the torus, and not 'through' it's open center... correct?
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Old September 19 2012, 01:01 PM   #32
Mars
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Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say

Perhaps to make maximum use of that space a football shape would be best.
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Old September 19 2012, 01:05 PM   #33
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Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say

Sounds like a novel I read by Travis Taylor "Warp Speed" 10 times the speed of light is "Warp 2" right?
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Old September 19 2012, 01:58 PM   #34
JarodRussell
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Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say

Mars wrote: View Post
Perhaps to make maximum use of that space a handegg shape would be best.
Corrected that for you. A "football shape" is a sphere.
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Old September 19 2012, 02:09 PM   #35
The Green Mushroom
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Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Mars wrote: View Post
Perhaps to make maximum use of that space a handegg shape would be best.
Corrected that for you. A "football shape" is a sphere.
Really? Where?

In America, a football would mean an American Football football. That is not round.

In Australia, a football could mean the ball used in any of: Australian Football, Rugby Union Football, Rugby League Football, or Association Football.

In Ireland, I believe, a football generally means a Gaelic Football. Unless the person using the word means a rugby or association football.

I admit I don't know what I would get if in England if I asked for a football without specifying which of the three versions played professionally there or any of them versions played by amateurs only.

This is a thread about a warp drive, not a thread to parse the incredibly array of meanings that the word football provides.
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Old September 19 2012, 04:05 PM   #36
Alidar Jarok
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Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say

Yeah, Rugby is a type of football that arguably is older than the changed "safer" version of football that is Association rules (it's weird to think that they came from the same sport, but they certainly do).
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Old September 19 2012, 04:13 PM   #37
Mars
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Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say

What does it have to do with rugs, is it played on a rug? I think an American football is so called because that is long it is, 1 foot.
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Old September 19 2012, 04:24 PM   #38
Deckerd
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Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say

I don't think you're being serious there.
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Old September 19 2012, 04:40 PM   #39
Mars
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Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say

^ Quite right, the discussion has devolved into the merits of American Football vs Rugby and Soccer, so I'm not taking it seriously at this point till we get it back on track.

An a more serious note, I'd be surprised if there is anything more to this than Cold Fusion. I remember those claims of those two scientists who claimed to have discovered Cold Fusion and for a week or so, the newspapers and magazines were filled with discussions about how Cold Fusion would change our society.
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Old September 19 2012, 06:11 PM   #40
tighr
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Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say

Mars wrote: View Post
I remember those claims of those two scientists who claimed to have discovered Cold Fusion and for a week or so, the newspapers and magazines were filled with discussions about how Cold Fusion would change our society.
Well, to be fair, Cold Fusion WOULD change our society. There is nothing wrong with having healthy discussions on the ways cold fusion could be used.
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Old September 19 2012, 08:47 PM   #41
SilentP
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Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say

When the article states 'potentially made of exotic matter', what is the reasoning that it needs to be only 'potentially' made of exotic matter? What exactly is the ring doing in this instance that it needs unknown materials to perform it's role?
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Old September 19 2012, 09:51 PM   #42
The Green Mushroom
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Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say

SilentP wrote: View Post
When the article states 'potentially made of exotic matter', what is the reasoning that it needs to be only 'potentially' made of exotic matter? What exactly is the ring doing in this instance that it needs unknown materials to perform it's role?
I believe there is a technical definition of exotic matter, but I can't think of right now.

But...what pieces of regular matter are you familiar with that can bend space time enough to enable FTL travel?
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Old September 20 2012, 12:56 AM   #43
STR
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Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say

I like the direction they're taking this, though I can't help but think that the warp drive experiments will be something done part time by a small team while 99% of the work is used to improve ion drives, or one of those fusion reactor-based drives a poster here was talking about a while ago. Not that we should be spending a lot more than that chasing what is almost harebrained physics, but it's a bit of a downer once you realize that.

From a hypothetical standpoint, how does White's drive system scale? If a couple of tons of exotic matter will get you to 10c (and is that a couple of tons all at once, or fuel burn of some kind?) What gets you to 20c or 100c? Does it matter what amount of mass or volume he's moving?

Deimos Anomaly wrote: View Post
Footballs are spherical.
Not the one used in the good football. You're thinking of footbol, the widely televised sleeping aid.
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Last edited by STR; September 20 2012 at 01:07 AM.
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Old September 20 2012, 01:42 AM   #44
gturner
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Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say

The Green Mushroom wrote: View Post
SilentP wrote: View Post
When the article states 'potentially made of exotic matter', what is the reasoning that it needs to be only 'potentially' made of exotic matter? What exactly is the ring doing in this instance that it needs unknown materials to perform it's role?
I believe there is a technical definition of exotic matter, but I can't think of right now.
You're thinking of "exotic dancer." They're pretty useless for this kind of application.

Exotic matter for this type of drive I think refers to having a negative energy density, which is unknown but theoretically possible with quantum states. What puzzles me is that if the experiment requires a form of matter that doesn't actually exist, they're not going to have much luck getting a result.
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Old September 20 2012, 04:04 AM   #45
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Re: Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say

gturner wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
EJD1984 wrote: View Post
The one issue I just thought of is with communication. Would you have to stop to make a transmission?
No, relativistically the speed of light remains constant in all reference frames, even if you're FTL with respect to the receiver. Message transit time is the same either way (you might want to stop accelerating for a while, though, in case the warp field scatters your radio signals). The thing is, your signal would be redshifted by such an insane degree that it might be below the detection threshold of anything that might be able to receive and decode it. 10c is enough of a doppler shift to go from x-rays to ULF radio, and that would have certain complications for message integrity.
I think the redshift is easily calculated because the sender isn't undergoing time dilation.
He is from the receiver's point of view, and so is the receiver from the sender's point of view.

The sender traveling to Alpha Centauri sends 5 months (their perceived time) worth of data, which gets strung out from Earth to Alpha Centauri, so the end of their message arrives 4.2 years later, a factor of 10 (their velocity in C). So a 20 GHz signal arrives at a frequency of 2 GHz.
Which would, once again, have the appearance of time dilation for all the usual reasons: the signals are still arriving at the speed of light, but they are redshifted to the point that time appears to be running at 10% of its normal speed at the transmitting ship. What's interesting is, the ship would still APPEAR to be traveling at about or slightly less than the speed of light (if you were looking at it with a telescope, let's say) despite the fact that it suddenly returns to Earth ten months later with a bunch of photographs and rock samples from Alpha Centauri's dwarf planets; the crew of the ship would actually be able to look out into space and see a reflection of themselves, still in transit, nearly nearly seven years later. So not only the appearance of time dilation, but the appearance of time TRAVEL: the starship is seen arriving at Earth BEFORE it is seen arriving at Alpha Centauri.

Note that the time dilation effect is only observed from Earth's point of view and is again a consequence of the immense distances and the limitations of the speed of light. Time doesn't ACTUALLY dilate, it just seems that way because of the huge differences in their respective reference frames. Likewise, the starship traveling at FTL speeds will almost immediately begin to overtake its own radio transmissions and will eventually look back at Earth and see the planet the way it was years before they actually launched; warping back TO Earth, seems to speed up time in the same way.
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