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Old September 18 2012, 01:31 AM   #61
Dream
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Re: I thought Valiant was a very good episode

"He may have been a hero... he may even have been a great man... but in the end, he was a bad captain."

That would've describle Captain Archer perfectly!
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Old September 18 2012, 05:29 AM   #62
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Re: I thought Valiant was a very good episode

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
One strange or dumb thing in the episode is how they have the one Vulcan there (like they always do) and he pretty much goes along with all of it.

I would think a Vulcan would be the first one to say that the plan was illogical.
Sure, maybe your typical Vulcan. But this was a RED SQUAD Vulcan. As a member of Red Squad, he would have an inflated sense of success, potentially succeeding at everything he has ever attempted, and his youthful logic would tell him their chances of success were high.
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Old September 18 2012, 06:08 AM   #63
Jimi_James
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Re: I thought Valiant was a very good episode

Red Squad may have represented the best and the brightest, but somewhere along the way, the Starfleet Academy instructors lost prospective on the importance of actual experience gained through field duty, and the first few years of being an officer. Red Squad may have been naturally gifted, but talent only takes you so far.

As Kirk said to Savik, you have to learn why things work on a starship. Turning them lose, with a Defiant class ship no less, was nothing less than negligent on the part of Starfleet Command and the Academy. I'm all for advanced training, but there have to be limits, specifically when you're encouraging that best of the best mentality that was indoctrinated into the minds of everyone aboard that ship. The Academy had them so full of themselves, that they actually believed they could do anything, to the point of invincibility.

Even Jake pointed out that his father, with all his combat experience wouldn't have undertaken such a mission, but they just casually dismiss it, because they're better than officers who have spent their entire careers learning how to lead a ship and crew into combat.

I will say though, that I don't buy that idea that a Vulcan would have seen what they were doing was doomed to failure, based on logic alone. We've seen Vulcans use logic to justify plenty of things that we might think goes against the edicts of acting in a strictly logical fashion.

This is to say nothing of the notion that all Vuclans are strictly logical, the same way all Bajorans are religious, or all Cardassians love to give sweeping long winded monologues. I'm sure that just like us, Vulcans are plenty diverse in their adherence to logic.

It seems like someone would come up with some sort of motto about diversity and all the combinations in which it might be found.

That being said, this is a failing of Trek as a whole, which has routinely boiled down entire races into one defining characteristic. Vuclans are logical. Bajorans are spiritual. Cardassians are oppressive. Ferengi are greedy profitiers. And Klingons are warriors. Anything that's outside that, is an abnormality, like Sybok. A passionate Vulcan. Who could have imagined such a thing.

Overall, this is just a filler episode, with some nice space battles. It's certainly not the worse episode of the series, but it's by no means the best either and it certainly pales in comparison to the other war centric episodes that made ds9 stand out; such as The Siege of AR-558, Nor The Battle to the Strong, and In the Pale Moonlight.
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Old September 18 2012, 05:39 PM   #64
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Re: I thought Valiant was a very good episode

As for the Vulcan, I assume he knows any concerns he might raise will just get squashed, so he places protocol ahead of everything else.
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Old September 18 2012, 06:22 PM   #65
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Re: I thought Valiant was a very good episode

Jimi_James wrote: View Post
As Kirk said to Savik, you have to learn why things work on a starship.
To be fair that was because Savik apparently didn't know about Prefix codes so they could explain them to the audience and in hindsight seems rather odd not to mention while instructing the cadets.

Even Jake pointed out that his father, with all his combat experience wouldn't have undertaken such a mission,
And Jake would probably think his father wouldn't lie to a Romulan senator and then be an accessory to his murder when he gets killed after discovering the truth, but that doesn't necessarily make that true. Seriously Sisko is a main character doing crazy stuff comes with the territory. I mean he punched Q for crying out loud.

That being said Red Squad was still a bunch of idiots. I mean it would have been one thing if the Dominion Uber ship was on its way to destroy an inhabited planet, but it was just sitting there loitering so they had plenty of time to go back get a fleet and then destroy the thing, but no they had to be glory hounds.
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Old September 18 2012, 08:09 PM   #66
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Re: I thought Valiant was a very good episode

tighr wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
One strange or dumb thing in the episode is how they have the one Vulcan there (like they always do) and he pretty much goes along with all of it.

I would think a Vulcan would be the first one to say that the plan was illogical.
Sure, maybe your typical Vulcan. But this was a RED SQUAD Vulcan. As a member of Red Squad, he would have an inflated sense of success, potentially succeeding at everything he has ever attempted, and his youthful logic would tell him their chances of success were high.
I could never get that scene. Vulcans are supposed to be raised to logic, if anything, with their skills, a Vulcan should have been captain or first officer.

Instead this one hears their plan, sees how illogical or stupid it is, and still joined in.

There should have been nothing but objections from him, or why bother to have a Vulcan there to begin with?

This is what Vulcans do--they analyze and object or agree.

They were spoiled by Starfleet and propped up by them, given special assignments, quarters, treatment.

"We're Red Squad! And we can do anything!"

Didn't Nick Locarno and Wesely Crusher say the same thing?
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Old September 18 2012, 08:53 PM   #67
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Re: I thought Valiant was a very good episode

More or less, but it seems as if Starfleet didn't learn the lessons from the Nova Squad incident.
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Old September 18 2012, 09:36 PM   #68
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Re: I thought Valiant was a very good episode

We've seen Vulcans who were bullies, Vulcans who were utter pricks, we've seen Vulcans just stand there as the leader of their government went off his rocker and started bombing an unarmed settlement on their home planet and then declare war on Andoria....

The Vulcan on the Valiant should have seen the lack of sense in their mission. The humans should have, too. But none did. They were all too dumb to live.
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Old September 23 2012, 10:21 PM   #69
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Re: I thought Valiant was a very good episode

I also thought it was bizarre that the Vulcan just went along with it. What stuck out for me was the lack of appropriate leadership and interpersonal skills displayed by the crew of the Valiant. Watters and Ferris show their inexperience, lack of confidence, and overall arrogance by how they dealt with Dorian's homesickness. She was chastised instead of taken seriously and shown compassion. Jake was then given a restraining order basically and watched like a hawk and finally thrown in the brig for voicing his objections.

These twits were so inept at basic leadership and interpersonal skills that they feared one lone voice of objection and the only reaction to it was to quarantine that voice from anyone else who might be swayed by it.
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Old September 24 2012, 09:38 PM   #70
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Re: I thought Valiant was a very good episode

this episode sucks
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Old September 24 2012, 09:59 PM   #71
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Re: I thought Valiant was a very good episode

I wonder if those cadets would've been posthumously expelled
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Old September 24 2012, 10:09 PM   #72
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Re: I thought Valiant was a very good episode

NrobbieC wrote: View Post
I wonder if those cadets would've been posthumously expelled
Well, they sure as hell won't be given medals for what they did.
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Old September 25 2012, 02:29 AM   #73
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Re: I thought Valiant was a very good episode

You never know with the Starfleet of this period. With morale and the myth of what Red Squad was, I wouldn't be surprised if they awarded them some medals for bravery or something.

They looked like they were seriously spoiled and built up to be something they were not.

I saw arrogance, bitchie-ness, paranoia--I thought 24th century people were supposed to be better than us??
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