Chris Pine: To Shat or Nat? That is the question.

[Bob Karo]

The more I think about it, the more I say no. It's more a character as written than acted problem.

I guess what I want is a Kirk who's more a walking stack of text books than a punk.

[M'Sharak]

Bob Karo wrote:

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The more I think about it, the more I say no. It's more a character as written than acted problem.

I guess what I want is a Kirk who's more a walking stack of text books than a punk.

But do we actually ever see that guy - Academy instructor Lt. James T. "stack of books with legs" Kirk? No, we don't. He never appears on screen—not once—and the single time he gets a mention by a former pupil, even Shatner's Kirk seems a bit dubious:

MITCHELL: Well, I'm getting a chance to read some of that longhair stuff you like. Hey man, I remember you back at the academy. A stack of books with legs. The first thing I ever heard from upperclassmen was, Watch out for Lieutenant Kirk. In his class, you either think or sink.
KIRK: I wasn't that bad, was I?

What was it about that one line of dialogue? What gave it such a grip on fans that we're still—forty-six years later—expecting to see that "stack of books" guy from any perspective other than that particular to Cadet Mitchell's seat in an Academy classroom?

[King Daniel Into Darkness]

I see "stack of books with legs" Lt. Kirk as an artifact from the pilot. After all, his supposed BFF Gary Mitchell never gets a mention again. Spock wears yellow and has a vaguely-defined human ancestor, no McCoy or Uhura, Sulu wears blue.... the characters weren't defined yet, the costumes and sets were prototypical etc
(oh yeah, and books are obsolete! Everyone bar Kirk's lawyer uses PADDs)

I say this new James Kirk is working back from the Kirk seen in the series proper.

[UFO]

KingDaniel wrote:

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I see "stack of books with legs" Lt. Kirk as an artifact from the pilot.

Ah, you mean the same way you see a smiling Spock?

KingDaniel wrote:

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I say this new James Kirk is working back from the Kirk seen in the series proper.

According to popular cliche it could have happened that way, but ST09 seems to go to extremes to give the impression its the absence of Kirk's father combined with the tyrannical uncle/stepfather and apparently a disinterested mother this time round, that drives him off the rails. So I guess we can believe what we want to.

[King Daniel Into Darkness]

UFO wrote:

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Ah, you mean the same way you see a smiling Spock?

You got me there! I... umm.... I'll get back to you n that one...

According to popular cliche it could have happened that way, but ST09 seems to go to extremes to give the impression its the absence of Kirk's father combined with the tyrannical uncle/stepfather and apparently a disinterested mother this time round, that drives him off the rails. So I guess we can believe what we want to.

Very true. Kirk's life is the one explicity shown to be different from that of his prime counterpart.

[UFO]

KingDaniel wrote:

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You got me there! I... umm.... I'll get back to you n that one...

Well to be fair you have already suggested that has greater validity by virtue of being included in the "series proper". Which is a reasonable point, though I don't believe it is conclusive.

On the other hand, while, as M'Sharak points out, "Kirk as a stack of books on legs" is not, as far a I know, supported by anything we actually see, neither I believe is it contradicted. Not even by a movie that was billed as a prequel!

[M'Sharak]

UFO wrote:

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Well to be fair you have already suggested that has greater validity by virtue of being included in the "series proper". Which is a reasonable point, though I don't believe it is conclusive.

On the other hand, while, as M'Sharak points out, "Kirk as a stack of books on legs" is not, as far a I know, supported by anything we actually see, neither I believe is it contradicted.

But why is it so important that Kirk be that "stack of books with legs," when it had not been so throughout Shatner's non-WNMHGB career (78 live-action episodes, 22 animated episodes, 7 feature films) portraying Kirk?

That was the question: why has it become important that Kirk be measured against that particular yardstick now, when it never had been before? Why has it become necessary that we see this "stack of books with legs" in any situation other than the one situation (even allowing Mitchell room for a bit of a fond exaggeration in reminiscence) in which it was supposed to have been true?

If there was a reasonable expectation that one of the remaining films would be showing us Lieutenant Kirk, hard-nosed instructor of a "think or sink" course at Starfleet Academy, then yes, I might be looking for that as a prominent aspect of the characterization. But what's the likelihood of our seeing that on the big screen, really, besides practically nil?

[Lord Garth, FOI]

Xaios wrote:

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The one point in the movie where I thought he was channeling the spirit of Shatner, he managed to do it without it being cheesy. It's the point at the end of the movie where he steps onto the bridge, takes a look around, and exclaims "Bones!"

I got goosebumps at that moment.

This

[Nerys Myk]

IIRC, there are lines than indicate Kirk had a "wild streak" when he was younger. Dr. Marcus's "Listen, kiddo, Jim Kirk was many things, but he was never a Boy Scout!" comes to mind,

[UFO]

M'Sharak wrote:

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But why is it so important that Kirk be that "stack of books with legs," when it had not been so throughout Shatner's non-WNMHGB career (78 live-action episodes, 22 animated episodes, 7 feature films) portraying Kirk?

That was the question: why has it become important that Kirk be measured against that particular yardstick now, when it never had been before? Why has it become necessary that we see this "stack of books with legs" in any situation other than the one situation (even allowing Mitchell room for a bit of a fond exaggeration in reminiscence) in which it was supposed to have been true?

I am not sure what you mean by "… when it had not been so throughout Shatner's non-WNMHGB career …". It is after all part of this history, not his present and apparently there was never a story that required we actually see that part of his past. In the prime universe it is clear that he mellowed quite a bit but I think we can see the intelligent part of that Kirk in much of his post WNMHGB career. Similarly we are told nuKirk is also very bright though its hard to see how a rebel type would want to take the tests necessary to indicate that. They tend to be anti social! In WNMHGB we are told that reasoned solutions are important to Kirk and what he expects of others. For me, Spock’s character also affirms that theme. We don’t know that about nuKirk because that’s not part of his history.

Quite apart from the "stack of books with legs" being a fairly powerful image, I think it sums up the "non-action" hero part of Kirk. Or the thinking man’s hero part, if you will. There are certainly times when he gets out of a jam by using his brains. Whatever a lot of people now may want to believe, ST was never just an action adventure show with a big "dumb" leader, it blends action and intelligence.

If there was a reasonable expectation that one of the remaining films would be showing us Lieutenant Kirk, hard-nosed instructor of a "think or sink" course at Starfleet Academy, then yes, I might be looking for that as a prominent aspect of the characterization. But what's the likelihood of our seeing that on the big screen, really, besides practically nil?

Once again I don’t follow why it should be a requirement that it be explicitly shown in either universe really. It just forms part of Kirk’s back-story which gives us a handle on part of what formed him. I.e. he is a little bit different to the straight (no pun intended) muscle-bound plup action hero type.

I don’t think it is so much about Kirk being a hard ass, as a proponent of thinking. As I say, that is part of Prime Kirk.

[UFO]

Nerys Myk wrote:

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IIRC, there are lines than indicate Kirk had a "wild streak" when he was younger. Dr. Marcus's "Listen, kiddo, Jim Kirk was many things, but he was never a Boy Scout!" comes to mind,

That's strange because he seemed to like camping.

[Set Harth]

M'Sharak wrote:

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But do we actually ever see that guy - Academy instructor Lt. James T. "stack of books with legs" Kirk?

Technically, shouldn't that be Lt. James R. "stack of books with legs" Kirk?