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Old September 16 2012, 08:19 AM   #61
BirdInJetstream
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Re: female audience reaction to Seven of Nine

Back to "What was my first impression/reaction to Seven":
I was thrilled by the episodes Scorpion1+2. What I noticed first about Seven was her childlike face in those episodes. And she did not yet wear high heels (I think) because she appeared a lot smaller. Probably also as a result of all that Borg stuff attached to her body. Actually I didn't even notice her female attributes so much - they were well disguised by the Borg thingies on her. Another thing that I remember as something striking was Janeways reaction, when Janeway was sitting in her chair on the bridge and Seven passing behind her. I thought: "Wow - Seven gives Janeway the creeps!" This was the moment when I started to really look forward into the relationship between those two characters. I think that was the first time that we saw Janeway actually being a bit scared of someone else.

Otherwise: I really like Seven. But I agree that the catsuit was a bit too much. Seven is such a great character. In a way I felt the optical enhancements were unnescessary and had the potential to harm and reduce her personality. I was wondering which realistic interaction this outer appearance would have caused since the crew was pretty scared of the (former) Borg and pretty attracted to her looks. I had the impression that after a while the crew was interacting with her disregardless of the looks and later also disregardless of her being a former drone. I felt that it wasn't very realistic.
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Old September 16 2012, 08:52 AM   #62
Guy Gardener
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Re: female audience reaction to Seven of Nine

teacake wrote: View Post
But.. I always beat on Riker as foreplay.
Peanut covered fists clobbering your Riker themed novel covers?

If your bookshelves could talk.

I never let things go so far.

Spitting at the TV now and then sublimates my passion for the monkey's comeuppance.
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Old September 16 2012, 09:00 AM   #63
teacake
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Re: female audience reaction to Seven of Nine

There's three monkeys we could be talking about here.

I don't think it's the Resolutions one though.
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Old September 16 2012, 09:01 AM   #64
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Re: female audience reaction to Seven of Nine

BirdInJetstream wrote: View Post
I had the impression that after a while the crew was interacting with her disregardless of the looks and later also disregardless of her being a former drone. I felt that it wasn't very realistic.
Janeway ordered them to. They knew that's what she wanted so they put in a big effort and got over their "ewww piercings" response.
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Old September 16 2012, 01:24 PM   #65
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Re: female audience reaction to Seven of Nine

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Just not the heels, seriously the heels...
The heels were just...dumb. But as others pointed out, the Doctor designed her get-up so quelle surprise. Think she should have worn a nice comfortable sweater, or SF uniform.

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Old September 16 2012, 01:45 PM   #66
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Re: female audience reaction to Seven of Nine

I think she didn't get a uniform for the same reason Neelix or Kes didn't, but there would have been nothing wrong with some normal clothes. I think the idea was that it's just "functional" and fashion is irrelevant or something like that, oh and an excuse to look at something.
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Old September 16 2012, 08:44 PM   #67
Violet.Phoenix
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Re: female audience reaction to Seven of Nine

BirdInJetstream wrote: View Post
Back to "What was my first impression/reaction to Seven":
I was thrilled by the episodes Scorpion1+2. What I noticed first about Seven was her childlike face in those episodes. And she did not yet wear high heels (I think) because she appeared a lot smaller. Probably also as a result of all that Borg stuff attached to her body. Actually I didn't even notice her female attributes so much - they were well disguised by the Borg thingies on her. Another thing that I remember as something striking was Janeways reaction, when Janeway was sitting in her chair on the bridge and Seven passing behind her. I thought: "Wow - Seven gives Janeway the creeps!" This was the moment when I started to really look forward into the relationship between those two characters. I think that was the first time that we saw Janeway actually being a bit scared of someone else.
That's really interesting. The notion of Seven having a sort of "child-like" face and Janeway being afraid of her are notions that I have not heard of before.

It's interesting that you should mention Seven's face resembling a child's, because even though she is physically an adult, she still has a social mindset of a child (since she was assimilated as one). Intellectually she's brilliant, but socially she still has a lot to learn.

And Janeway being afraid of Seven, now that is really interesting. We never really see Janeway as a fearful character. She's always diving headfirst into a situation and never shows any fear. Although I can completely understand why having a Borg drone on her bridge would make her slightly uneasy. The Borg can be unpredictable, and to Janeway that is cause for concern.

Otherwise: I really like Seven. But I agree that the catsuit was a bit too much. Seven is such a great character. In a way I felt the optical enhancements were unnescessary and had the potential to harm and reduce her personality.
I agree. She's a great character, but I feel like the catsuit took away from some of that by putting the focus on her body and less so on her personality. Characters should be brought into a story because they contribute to the overall arc, and though she most certainly did, it felt like her looks were a major part of that.
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Old September 16 2012, 10:02 PM   #68
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Re: female audience reaction to Seven of Nine

Ok. I think it wasn't a good choice of words. I actually wouldn't go so far to say she was afraid. But it was clearly creepy for her:



I mean her suspicions were justified and all. And of course she had a plan B. So she wasn't really scared. But I always thought it did cost her a lot so sit in that seat in that moment.

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Old September 16 2012, 10:22 PM   #69
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Re: female audience reaction to Seven of Nine

Janeway was real hypocritical in the way she treated Seven.

"You're human and you're free to have a choice... so long as you do exactly as I tell you and don't deviate from that one bit."
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Old September 16 2012, 10:36 PM   #70
Violet.Phoenix
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Re: female audience reaction to Seven of Nine

BirdInJetstream wrote: View Post
Ok. I think it wasn't a good choice of words. I actually wouldn't go so far to say she was afraid. But it was clearly creepy for her:



I mean her suspicions were justified and all. And of course she had a plan B. So she wasn't really scared. But I always thought it did cost her a lot so sit in that seat in that moment.

Yeah. I guess it's more that she was intimidated by something that she did not trust and could not accurately predict. Janeway is used to being in control and having variables that she can work with and understand. The Borg are the exact opposite of that.

I think it's safe to say that anyone would be creeped out by a Borg drone walking around behind them.

R. Star wrote: View Post
Janeway was real hypocritical in the way she treated Seven.

"You're human and you're free to have a choice... so long as you do exactly as I tell you and don't deviate from that one bit."
This is something that has always bothered me about Janeway's decision to make Seven human again. Sure, she had good intentions, but in giving Seven that Janeway forced her ideals on Seven. I've heard other arguments that as a drone she didn't really have a choice because she was under the will of the Collective, but she was still conscious of those choices.

Did Janeway really have the right to force all that on Seven, even with the best of intentions?
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Old September 16 2012, 10:44 PM   #71
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Re: female audience reaction to Seven of Nine

You can also see that the other way round: The Borg stole Seven's individuality. Janeway gives her the chance to get it back. If she does it the right way - hard to say. But in my logic she wasn't meant to be Borg in the first place.
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Old September 16 2012, 10:46 PM   #72
teacake
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Re: female audience reaction to Seven of Nine

Being made into Borg is like Kim being made into the Favorite Son species or Picard being made into the Inner Light species. There might be some good things about it but ultimately they have stolen you. Not just who you are species wise but who YOU are.
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Old September 17 2012, 04:33 AM   #73
mswood
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Re: female audience reaction to Seven of Nine

Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
BirdInJetstream wrote: View Post
Back to "What was my first impression/reaction to Seven":
I was thrilled by the episodes Scorpion1+2. What I noticed first about Seven was her childlike face in those episodes. And she did not yet wear high heels (I think) because she appeared a lot smaller. Probably also as a result of all that Borg stuff attached to her body. Actually I didn't even notice her female attributes so much - they were well disguised by the Borg thingies on her. Another thing that I remember as something striking was Janeways reaction, when Janeway was sitting in her chair on the bridge and Seven passing behind her. I thought: "Wow - Seven gives Janeway the creeps!" This was the moment when I started to really look forward into the relationship between those two characters. I think that was the first time that we saw Janeway actually being a bit scared of someone else.
That's really interesting. The notion of Seven having a sort of "child-like" face and Janeway being afraid of her are notions that I have not heard of before.

It's interesting that you should mention Seven's face resembling a child's, because even though she is physically an adult, she still has a social mindset of a child (since she was assimilated as one). Intellectually she's brilliant, but socially she still has a lot to learn.

And Janeway being afraid of Seven, now that is really interesting. We never really see Janeway as a fearful character. She's always diving headfirst into a situation and never shows any fear. Although I can completely understand why having a Borg drone on her bridge would make her slightly uneasy. The Borg can be unpredictable, and to Janeway that is cause for concern.

Otherwise: I really like Seven. But I agree that the catsuit was a bit too much. Seven is such a great character. In a way I felt the optical enhancements were unnescessary and had the potential to harm and reduce her personality.
I agree. She's a great character, but I feel like the catsuit took away from some of that by putting the focus on her body and less so on her personality. Characters should be brought into a story because they contribute to the overall arc, and though she most certainly did, it felt like her looks were a major part of that.
But and here is the kicker.

I strongly stand behind the Heels are colossally stupid and not something a drone (remember certainly her first season, she really felt in many ways more connected to the Borg then her own humanity), would ever, ever, ever wear.

But the catsuit, something right next to your skin, something that doesn't stop or slow movement. That I think a freed Borg would absolutely wear. After all she wouldn't care a wit what the crew thought of her appearance.

It would all be what she wanted, and to the suit the needs she had.

Clearly cat suits and the like aren't frown upon by the 24th century we see plenty of examples of people wearing less, and also wearing form fitting clothes, so realistically within the universe of Trek, there would e no real reason that Janeway would say hey put something else on over that.

Janeway wouldn't say wear the starfleet uniform, something that we have been shown is something you have to really earn. Now over time I can absolutely see her moving to that (and would be all for that but absolutely not her first season).

And as for her looks taking attention away from her character, I say well ues to some degrees, but thats true for almost every person on TV. Casting made to appeal to the public, clothes made or bought to highlight aspects of that person natural beauty and their actual character. That occurs all the time.

But within that universe, how often id characters react to her catsuit? Almost never. Especially at first, I loved the difference between her look and the strength of her character. I thought that was awesome, and even highlighted her strength.
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Old September 17 2012, 04:39 AM   #74
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Re: female audience reaction to Seven of Nine

Behind the scenes, IIRC, the handwave for Seven's high heels was that they contained some extra cyborg components that Seven still needed for balance or coordination or something, and that the Doctor couldn't fit anywhere else when he designed her garment. It's a bit weak, though.
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Old September 17 2012, 04:57 AM   #75
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Re: female audience reaction to Seven of Nine

I've heard the same star trek explanation for Jeri's real world breast implants.

Consider.

This might be good for the Borg.

It might make sense.

But after the Doctor starts pulling hardware out of her, filling a bucket up with bits of her to one side of his table, then you must be claiming that when she takes her shoes off, that Seven still has six inch protrusions erecting (but it's building down? That can't be right.) from her heels towards the floor.
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