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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old September 15 2012, 09:25 PM   #1
SchwEnt
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TWOK What If--Khan wins

Let us imagine that Khan wins in TWOK.
He gets his hands on the Reliant and the Genesis Device.

He gets lucky in the Mutara battle and destroys the Enterprise, killing Kirk. Khan wins final vengeance.

Then what? What is Khan's plan? What does he do next?

Announce to the Federation his possession of the Genesis Device? Does he threaten the galaxy? For what? What would be his demands?

Would he be satisfied with defeating Kirk and escaping exile and just go off to find a new world for himself?

Does he return to Earth? To do what?

Would it just be a case of Starfleet then sending a battle force to stop him and it's over for Khan anyway?

What are the things you can imagine?
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Old September 16 2012, 02:02 AM   #2
JarodRussell
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Re: TWOK What If--Khan wins

I guess his plan was to set up a new "empire", with the Genesis device being his tool to enforce his demands. Kinda like some terrorist who gets his hands on one single Nuke.
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Old September 16 2012, 10:49 AM   #3
Tiberius
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Re: TWOK What If--Khan wins

If Khan won, then there wouldn't have been any need to go and rescue Spock from the Genesis planet (and no one available to rescue him anyway, as they'd all be dead, and Spock would be dead as well, rendering the whole thing a moot point).

And since Kirk and co weren't AWOL rescuing Spock, there would be no one to save Earth a few months later when the whaleprobe appears, and Khan would probably be killed with the rest of earth's population.
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Old September 16 2012, 11:11 AM   #4
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Re: TWOK What If--Khan wins

Not much of plan beyond vengeance against one man really... the Genesis Device can only be used once. Then he's still facing overwhelming forces intent on hunting him down.

I suppose like the Xindi, the Romulans (so we're told), the Borg... he'd get through to Earth but instead of decimation or assimilation, within a short time, have a nice lush planet to rule over.

Although just the Reliant, wouldn't be enough to protect him from the rest of Starfleet once that's done. He'd need allies.
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Old September 16 2012, 12:41 PM   #5
Mr Silver
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Re: TWOK What If--Khan wins

ChristopherPike wrote: View Post
Not much of plan beyond vengeance against one man really... the Genesis Device can only be used once. Then he's still facing overwhelming forces intent on hunting him down.
Khan's a super smart guy with an entire community of super smart followers. I'm sure he'd find a way to reverse engineer the Genesis device and manufacture super weapons from it.

I've wondered whether that was his intention all along. After all, it's a foregone conclusion that he was aware of the destructive potential of the device and the position of power such a device would put him in.

Why waste a colossal bargaining chip on one planet, when you can have many?

Although just the Reliant, wouldn't be enough to protect him from the rest of Starfleet once that's done. He'd need allies.
Plenty of other genetically engineered species in the galaxy. That, and along with the power of Genesis as a motivator, he'd have a lot of allies in no time at all.
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Old September 20 2012, 09:25 PM   #6
Redfern
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Re: TWOK What If--Khan wins

If he's as smart as he claims to be, have him reprogram the Genesis Device to convert the mass of a planet, not into a "garden world", but into an equal mass of...Genesis Devices! Talk about a well stocked arsenal!

Okay, I'm being flippant. I'm just reminded of the bit about someone wishing a genie to grant him infinite wishes (assuming it's the usual limit of 3).

Sincerely,

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Old September 20 2012, 10:17 PM   #7
CorporalClegg
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Re: TWOK What If--Khan wins

If Khan wins he reassembles the Genesis device into a weapon that can instantly remove all deus ex machina from existence, making him virtually invincible.


Admiral M wrote: View Post
Khan's a super smart guy
He is?
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Old September 20 2012, 10:29 PM   #8
Mr Silver
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Re: TWOK What If--Khan wins

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
He is?
His intellect far surpasses that of any average human, because he's genetically engineered. This has been stated numerous times throughout both Space Seed and TWOK.

The point they were trying to drive in TWOK, was that Kirk only managed to beat Khan via his experience and the efforts of his crew. The fact of the matter is that Khan commandeered a starship, worked out how to use it, and then held his own against another starship with a formidable commander and bridge crew.

In one of the deleted scenes, restored for the DE, Kirk says to McCoy that the only reason they escaped the intial Reliant attack was because "I (Kirk) knew something about starships that he (Khan) didn't".

Consider this also, Khan is 200 years out of touch with science and technology. Even the near-twenty years that he spent on Ceti Alpha V, would have been spent with severely limited access to 23rd century technology. He could have learned a few things yes, but not how to operate a starship that is of a much newer generation of technology than the one he was briefly exposed to.

If it took him a day or so to accustom himself to a starship, the odds are that he would have eventually worked out the basic principles needed to reverse engineer the Genesis device.
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Old September 21 2012, 12:26 AM   #9
CorporalClegg
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Re: TWOK What If--Khan wins

Admiral M wrote: View Post
His intellect far surpasses that of any average human, because he's genetically engineered. This has been stated numerous times throughout both Space Seed and TWOK.
So if I just stated numerous times that I was super awesome, you'd just take my word for it? Nice!

The fact of the matter is that Khan commandeered a starship, worked out how to use it, and then held his own against another starship with a formidable commander and bridge crew.
He did non of the above.

He didn't commandeer anything. He used his magic slugs to brainwash the two ranking officers into handing over the keys.

How did you know he worked out how to use it? Did you see this happen? Didn't think so. For all you know, he spent three days playing the "What's this do?" game with the a fore mentioned brainwashed officers.

Or he could have just picked up the users' manual, Starships for Dummies, and followed along the starhip new users tour as the talking paperclip showed him how to fire torpedoes.

There's nothing extraordinary about what he did.

There was also nothing formidable about his opposing commander. He ignored the rule book (not to mention common sense, history, and a junior officer) and uncharacteristically put himself in that position. Had the real Kirk shown up, Khan would have been neutralized before he got the chance to swing around Uranus.

In one of the deleted scenes, restored for the DE, Kirk says to McCoy that the only reason they escaped the intial Reliant attack was because "I (Kirk) knew something about starships that he (Khan) didn't".
What Kirk really meant was, "The writers gave me the hat and the rabbit, and still Spock had to show me how to get one from the other."

In fact, that "something" [prefix code] is such an assign idea, its existence is only more proof of how stupidly Khan acted. If Startfleet was stupid enough to put such a security hole in their ships, they'd be stupid enough to file it under Starship Security in a Nutshell.

The first rule of seizure tactics it to fully secure the asset. It's been this way since pretty much the dawn of time. If Khan was really as smart as people claim he was, he would have know this and gone over EVERYTHING to find potential security leaks. the prefix codes would have stuck out like a swore thumb.


If it took him a day or so to accustom himself to a starship, the odds are that he would have eventually worked out the basic principles needed to reverse engineer the Genesis device.
Total false equivalency.
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Old September 21 2012, 11:55 AM   #10
Timo
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Re: TWOK What If--Khan wins

Plenty of other genetically engineered species in the galaxy. That, and along with the power of Genesis as a motivator, he'd have a lot of allies in no time at all.
Allies? Don't you mean mortal enemies?

The point they were trying to drive in TWOK, was that Kirk only managed to beat Khan via his experience and the efforts of his crew.
...And also that Khan had gone too crazy, and perhaps too old, to be the enemy he once was.

He did non of the above.
Hmh? Seems he did all of it.

He commandeered the ship, by cleverly making use of those slugs (and no doubt by other means, as the slugs would only get him so far in his quest to maroon the crew). After all, the ship was commandeered when we next met him.

He worked out how to use it. After all, he was using it when we next met him.

He then held his own against another starship in two battles. We saw that.

There's nothing extraordinary about what he did.
Now that's a completely different thing. It's standard fare for movie villains, but obviously none of us could have done anything of the sort in the time allotted, or even given a lifetime.

The first rule of seizure tactics it to fully secure the asset. It's been this way since pretty much the dawn of time. If Khan was really as smart as people claim he was, he would have know this and gone over EVERYTHING to find potential security leaks. the prefix codes would have stuck out like a swore thumb.
Bullshit. Of course the secret back door would be secret.

Come on, sensible people buy foreign combat vessels, aircraft and missiles in the real world. And they don't find all the back doors built into them, and not for lack of trying. But it's a risk they have to take, and it generally pays off.

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Old September 22 2012, 04:35 PM   #11
USS Triumphant
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Re: TWOK What If--Khan wins

I suspect that Khan, having been defeated twice by "regular" humans, would have taken his crew and the Reliant and used the Genesis device to terraform some nice out of the way world - probably one that had already been cataloged as boring and uninhabitable by Starfleet - with the plan of building the core of his empire there under the radar until he felt ready to at least defend it.

Then, as has been pointed out by others, there would have been no Kirk and crew to save Earth from the Whalesong probe, and, Earth being his homeworld, too, I suspect that Khan would've tried to save it, and either got killed for his trouble, or succeeded in some way (probably *not* time travel unless he managed to recover and break the security on the computer core of the Enterprise*) and then either used his position at that point to retake power at Earth, or been taken down by Starfleet.

* Although really, if you think about it, Khan and crew would probably have managed their way around mid-80s Earth a lot better. He probably wouldn't have brought whales back to the 23rd century, though. He'd probably, instead, use the tech available on the Reliant to conquer 20th century Earth, and then his empire would make sure they kept some whales alive for later.
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Old September 22 2012, 08:41 PM   #12
Mr Silver
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Re: TWOK What If--Khan wins

Timo wrote: View Post
Allies? Don't you mean mortal enemies?
He'd have a lot of those too, but no, that's not what I was getting at. Let's assume that Khan and his followers would seek out other genetically engineered species to build an empire - a genetically superior one.

The potential for allies is apparent when you consider that Khan believes anybody who is not genetically enhanced, to be inferior to him, and that he and his followers could never live alongside "genetically inferior" species. Of course, building an empire requires numbers, something of which Khan's group doesn't have. The Genesis technology could be used to recruit allies and other followers, on the basis that they hold a weapon of incredibly destructive power.

Khan probably aspired to re-conquer Earth at some point following his escape from Ceti Alpha V - certain that he'd defeat Kirk effortlessly. There are plenty of races that hate the Federation, and since Khan plans to conquer the heart of the Federation, it's sure to attract allies. It's like when the Romulan Empire and the Klingon Empire allied, in a fashion of sorts, because both resented the Federation and hoped to conquer them.
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Old September 24 2012, 03:39 AM   #13
Therin of Andor
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Re: TWOK What If--Khan wins

Admiral M wrote: View Post
I'm sure he'd find a way to reverse engineer the Genesis device and manufacture super weapons from it.
IIRC, the contents of the memory banks with the secrets of the device were transferred to computers in the room beside the Genesis Cave before the scientists wiped the station's computers. Khan would have investigated eventually.
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Old September 24 2012, 04:09 AM   #14
t_smitts
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Re: TWOK What If--Khan wins

Admiral M wrote: View Post
ChristopherPike wrote: View Post
Not much of plan beyond vengeance against one man really... the Genesis Device can only be used once. Then he's still facing overwhelming forces intent on hunting him down.
Khan's a super smart guy with an entire community of super smart followers. I'm sure he'd find a way to reverse engineer the Genesis device and manufacture super weapons from it.

I've wondered whether that was his intention all along. After all, it's a foregone conclusion that he was aware of the destructive potential of the device and the position of power such a device would put him in.

Why waste a colossal bargaining chip on one planet, when you can have many?

Although just the Reliant, wouldn't be enough to protect him from the rest of Starfleet once that's done. He'd need allies.
Plenty of other genetically engineered species in the galaxy. That, and along with the power of Genesis as a motivator, he'd have a lot of allies in no time at all.
Even assuming Khan and his followers could figure out HOW to reverse engineer the Genesis device, that doesn't necessarily mean they have the resources to make more. (I highly doubt a supply of protomatter is standard issue on starships!)

In the mean time, Starfleet's obviously going to get concerned if they lose contact with TWO of their ships, and probably send another ship or two to go look for them. Maybe Khan gets lucky and catches them by surprise like he did with the Enterprise. Starfleet will just send yet another ship or two, who are going to be a lot more careful. They probably investigate the Regula 1 station, and maybe to Ceti Alpha V (Reliant's last known location), where they find the crew who tell them what happened. Either way, it's not going to take long for Starfleet to figure out Reliant's a rogue ship.

Now with all this fighting, Reliant's probably sustained quite a bit of damage. Even assuming they figure out how to fix the warp drive, it's not like they can go to a starbase for repairs. Maybe they can search the ship's database for a neutral port, but if word gets out that some band of rogues has stolen a Starfleet ship, it might attract the attention of certain parties like the Klingons or Romulans who might see this as a golden opportunity to capture an enemy vessel. (Even MORE so if they learn about the Genesis device!)

And yes, everyone Earth dies when the whale probe tears up the planet.
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Old September 24 2012, 10:11 AM   #15
Timo
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Re: TWOK What If--Khan wins

...Assuming it does. Perhaps it just does a bit of rearranging, and then drops some whale seeds into the oceans and leaves, so that ten years on, Earth is a happy place again and everybody can enjoy a delicious meal of whale beef?

I couldn't see anybody voluntarily joining forces with Khan in a flat out fight: his "equals" would consider him competition, his "inferiors" would know what happened the last time around and would gang up against him. On the other hand, in "Space Seed" at least, Khan's speech was pure honey and his biceps could sweep the legs from under any man or woman at a distance. Perhaps he could charm his way into a dominant position, selling his Genesis-related services or promises thereof much like these supersmart supermen quite possibly sold futuristic inventions to sustain themselves back in the 1990s...

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