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Old September 15 2012, 12:53 PM   #91
F. King Daniel
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Re: Does the Federation still exist in the 31+th century?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
The sphere builders didn't see themselves losing with certainty; they can't - they didn't see Archer destroying the spheres (the future isn't fixed in star trek). They saw the future of them losing is probable AKA NOT certain.
As for the spheres destroyed in S3 being integral their plans - in Enterprise we saw them transform space with blinding speed.
They tried it again, with a new round of spheres/their technological successor in the 26th century, this time transforming space at full speed. This time, they were stopped at Procyon 5.

Which is the only version which fits what Daniels said and the scenarists' intent (as displayed in the relevant sequences, etc).
Any other interpretation leaves you either willfully ignoring large parts of the sequences, their tone, etc ('momentous event in history', etc) or with FAR larger inconsistencies (the federation not existing to fight if Archer failed; Daniels not caring about massive alterations to the 26th century, etc).

PS
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...6&postcount=71
The entire point of the TCW was to make changes in the timeline and excuse the retcons made in the show.

Daniels says to Archer that history had changed first with the destruction of the colony on Paraagan II ("Shockwave") then again, and most important to this discussion, the Xindi attack on Earth from "The Expanse". That's explicitly said to be a huge change. He later shows Archer the battle in the future that led to the Builders making that change. The Battle of Procyon V will no more happen in the future of ENT/TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY than Kirk will land a Bird of Prey on (nonexistant) Vulcan in the future of the STXI timeline.

The Sphere Builders were able to accelerate their transformation of space only after the Spheres had been doing their work for thousands of years. They won't be able to recreate the Expanse in the 400 they have. If they could, they'd have done so immediately after placing the spheres, long before their rivals achieved spaceflight.
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Old September 15 2012, 01:00 PM   #92
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Does the Federation still exist in the 31+th century?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
The Sphere Builders were able to accelerate their transformation of space only after the Spheres had been doing their work for thousands of years. They won't be able to recreate the Expanse in the 400 they have. If they could, they'd have done so immediately after placing the spheres, long before their rivals achieved spaceflight.
The sphere builders are not the only faction with time/whatever tech, that can compete on that level in the 22rd century and before. They may have been trying to hide - which was why the spheres were working so much slower than their normal capacity.
If the only reason the sphere builders didn't create altered space fast was because, until recently (S3), they couldn't, then in S3 they would have started the accelerated creation of altered space (they didn't) - no federation in the 22rd century to stop them.

Also - between the 22rd and 24th centuries are 400 years - time enough to improve their technology, making the speed of creation of altered space even faster.

PS
About 'Procyon 5 doesn't exist anymore' - it's an assumption with HUGE problems, which you omitted to address:
"It doesn't fit what Daniels said/the scenarists' intent (as displayed in the relevant sequences, etc).
It leaves you either willfully ignoring large parts of the sequences, their tone, etc ('momentous event in history', etc) or with FAR larger inconsistencies (the federation not existing to fight if Archer failed; Daniels not caring about massive alterations to the 26th century, etc)."
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...6&postcount=71
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Old September 15 2012, 01:27 PM   #93
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Re: Does the Federation still exist in the 31+th century?

There's always the possibility that the Battle of Procyon V was a fixed event in history, based on what Daniels said but how it turns out is not a certainty. The Enterprise-J fights the Sphere Builders but without the Expanse there, they did have ships in the 26th century after all.

I think we may need to agree to disagree on the Schroedinger's argument.
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Old September 15 2012, 03:09 PM   #94
F. King Daniel
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Re: Does the Federation still exist in the 31+th century?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Perhaps, but we have yet to hear a character mentioning an event in an alternate timeline as a 'momentous event in history'.
The destruction of Romulus which motivated Nero's path of destruction in STXI was a pretty huge deal.
You cannot seriously think the scenarists intended for the timeline Daniels spoke of to be, for him, little more than an abstraction, among uncountably many others like it.
Almost certainly, the scenarists didn't plan
ahead; but they intended for Daniels' speech to be about his own history, with emotional resonance to him.
One could try to explain the inconsistency in that the sphere builders made, with the Expanse, an attempt to disrupt history that Archer thwarted.
That timeline may very have been Daniels'. But I say it was an attempt to disrupt history that succeeded.

From "Carpenter Street" (source: http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/63.htm):

ARCHER: I thought you and your colleagues were
supposed to be keeping an eye on the time line.
You're from the thirtieth century. Hasn't all this
happened already?

DANIELS: History doesn't mention anything about a
conflict between humans and Xindi.

ARCHER: How could that be?

DANIELS: The events that are taking place are the
result of temporal incursions. They are not supposed
to be happening
.

ARCHER: But they are happening.

DANIELS: Yes, they are, but the outcome hasn't
reached us yet. It takes a while for changes to ripple
through the time line.

ARCHER: The time traveller, the man the Suliban
worked for.

DANIELS: What about him?

ARCHER: He's the one who told us about the weapon
being built. Should I believe him?

DANIELS: You have no reason not to.

ARCHER: You said I'm supposed to play some crucial
part in history. Does this have something to do with it?

DANIELS: I wish I could say that it does, but I don't
know. I told you, none of this was supposed to
happen
.

Therefore, the conflict and it's outcome are apart from what is in Daniels' history books.
The sphere builders are not the only faction with time/whatever tech, that can compete on that level in the 22rd century and before. They may have been trying to hide - which was why the spheres were working so much slower than their normal capacity.
If the only reason the sphere builders didn't create altered space fast was because, until recently (S3), they couldn't, then in S3 they would have started the accelerated creation of altered space (they didn't) - no federation in the 22rd century to stop them.
Not fact. Supposition. They may have simply cranked the spheres up to 11 in a crisis, risking a burn out or overload themselves.
Also - between the 22rd and 24th centuries are 400 years - time enough to improve their technology, making the speed of creation of altered space even faster.

PS
About 'Procyon 5 doesn't exist anymore' - it's an assumption with HUGE problems, which you omitted to address:
"It doesn't fit what Daniels said/the scenarists' intent (as displayed in the relevant sequences, etc).
It leaves you either willfully ignoring large parts of the sequences, their tone, etc ('momentous event in history', etc) or with FAR larger inconsistencies (the federation not existing to fight if Archer failed; Daniels not caring about massive alterations to the 26th century, etc)."
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...6&postcount=71
We don't know for sure if the earlier timeline continues to exist or not. It seemed to at least as far as "Carpenter Street" (where the changes "hasn't reached them yet") and "Azati Prime" (where we saw the event that inspired the Sphere Builders to alter history). The novel Watching the Clock features a complex model of how time travel works in Trek's multiverse. According to it, nothing "never happened" or is truly erased, athough entangled alternate histories eventually merge again.

Even if it doesn't, Daniels is just one man, whose job it would seem throughout the show was to ensure Archer would found the Coalition/Federation of Planets. So long as there is a Federation, there will be someone to combat attempts to rewrite history.
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Old September 15 2012, 03:31 PM   #95
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Re: Does the Federation still exist in the 31+th century?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Not fact. Supposition.
Yes, suppositions.
That have an important advantage over yours - they're far more plausible, considering on-screen evidence. And logical consistency.
The destruction of Romulus which motivated Nero's path of destruction in STXI was a pretty huge deal.
Yes - and it was in Nero's home timeline - that's why it was such a huge deal to him.
They may have simply cranked the spheres up to 11 in a crisis, risking a burn out or overload themselves.
Except these 'cranking' the spheres worked without a hitch - every time they were done. Signs of instability, danger for the spheres? None whatsoever.
Again, your suppositions fail to have substance.
[...]your temporal explanations[..]
KingDaniel, my temporal mechanics are far more self-consistent than yours - indeed, yours don't even try to be self-consistent.
You managed to resolve none of the inconsistencies with the 'Procyon 5 timeline doesn't exist anymore' - beyond hand-wavings and a ~'so what if it's inconsistent - it's time travel'.

The motivations you need to give to Daniels are also 'out there', as opposed to the ones I posit - as per you, he doesn't care about changes in the timeline beyond Archer (and, apparently, he has no colleagues who do).


PS - You don't describe accurately 'Watching the clock's temporal mechanics (in the novel, the explanations actually make sense/are self-consistent).
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Old September 15 2012, 04:09 PM   #96
F. King Daniel
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Re: Does the Federation still exist in the 31+th century?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Not fact. Supposition.
Yes, suppositions.
That have an important advantage over yours - they're far more plausible, considering on-screen evidence. And logical consistency.
The destruction of Romulus which motivated Nero's path of destruction in STXI was a pretty huge deal.
Yes - and it was in Nero's home timeline - that's why it was such a huge deal to him.
They may have simply cranked the spheres up to 11 in a crisis, risking a burn out or overload themselves.
Except these 'cranking' the spheres worked without a hitch - every time they were done. Signs of instability, danger for the spheres? None whatsoever.
Sounds a lot like when they cranked up the Enterprise in TOS. Always far beyond safeties, and it always worked out. It's TV drama.
Again, your suppositions fail to have substance.
[...]your temporal explanations[..]
KingDaniel, my temporal mechanics are far more self-consistent than yours - indeed, yours don't even try to be self-consistent.
You managed to resolve none of the inconsistencies with the 'Procyon 5 timeline doesn't exist anymore' - beyond hand-wavings and a ~'so what if it's inconsistent - it's time travel'.

The motivations you need to give to Daniels are also 'out there', as opposed to the ones I posit - as per you, he doesn't care about changes in the timeline beyond Archer (and, apparently, he has no colleagues who do).


PS - You don't describe accurately 'Watching the clock's temporal mechanics (in the novel, the explanations actually make sense/are self-consistent).
I give you quotes and evidence from episodes to back up what I say, I give various other possible explanations, and I just get I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG over and over, sometimes with bolding for emphasis and self-congratulatory nonsense.

It's an inconsistantly written television show. The writers have admitted they made it up as they went along, therefore there can be no definitive one binding truth behind it.
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Old September 15 2012, 04:22 PM   #97
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Re: Does the Federation still exist in the 31+th century?

KingDaniel

Enterprise in TOS? Really? In the scenes showing it coming apart at the seams?
Is it supposed to have anything in common with the spheres - and their flawless functioning (no sign of distress whatsoever) in creating very fast modified space - beyond being technology?

I give you quotes and evidence from episodes to back up what I say
The quotes you gave only show that the 22rd century xindi attack was a timestream modification - which propagates only slowly toward the future.
My far more self-consistent explanation has no problem whatsoever with either fact.

Daniels acted way too cool (not to mention, he kept existing unchanged) for Archer to have actually changed such a huge chunk of federation history as Procyon 5 - and the massive sociological/political/etc shifts leading up to it. The opposite is far too convoluted/inconsistent to be satisfactory as a fan meta-explanation.

But, if Archer only destroyed a first batch of stealthily acting spheres - which were themselves an attempt to modify history; or, alternatively, if these spheres were replaced by more direct means by the sphere builders in the 26th century - then history would be on track and Daniels should have no objections.
I give various other possible explanations
You give no such thing "beyond hand-wavings and a ~'so what if it's inconsistent - it's time travel in a tv show'". And really out there motivations for Daniels.
You still omitted to address the many inconsistencies inherent in the 'Procyon 5 timeline doesn't exist anymore' idea.

A, yes - and after I've called you out on it, all you could do is ignore all I've said and pretend I said instead "I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG over and over".
Obvious staw-man is obvious, KingDaniel.
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Old September 15 2012, 05:42 PM   #98
F. King Daniel
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Re: Does the Federation still exist in the 31+th century?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
KingDaniel

Enterprise in TOS? Really? In the scenes showing it coming apart at the seams?
Is it supposed to have anything in common with the spheres - and their flawless functioning (no sign of distress whatsoever) in creating very fast modified space - beyond being technology?
Exterior shots of the Enterprise exceeding top speeds also showed no distress. Less change than we saw on the spheres (the glowing, which could indicate overheating). You're dismissing a possibility despite incomplete data.
I give you quotes and evidence from episodes to back up what I say
The quotes you gave only show that the 22rd century spheres were a timestream modification - which propagates only slowly toward the future..
Have you shown any basis for your beliefs? Any quotes from episodes? Anything to back it up, beyond your "better" judgement and opinion of Daniels' infallability? Have you any examples from other Star Trek episodes or movies where similar changes to the timeline ultimately made no difference? Because you seem awfully sure of yourself, and all I've heard is "The Battle of Procyon V will happen and the Sphere Builders will undo their failure in 2153 somehow with technology" over and over.
My far more self-consistent explanation assumes the former fact - and has no problem whatsoever with the latter.
I give various other possible explanations
You give no such thing "beyond hand-wavings and a ~'so what if it's inconsistent - it's time travel in a tv show'". And really out there motivations for Daniels.
You still omitted to address the many inconsistencies inherent in the 'Procyon 5 timeline doesn't exist anymore' idea.
And your opinion that they will somehow get the expanse back in the intervening 400 years, possibly by advancing their technology, even though it took thousands of years to make it the first time, isn't a handwave? When the Sphere Builders already had access to future technology, some of which they'd shared with the Xindi to build their weapon? (see: Quantum dating of the debris in "The Expanse")
A, yes - and after I've called you out on it, all you could do is ignore all I've said and pretend I said instead "I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG over and over".
Obvious staw-man is obvious, KingDaniel.
Obvious unpleasentness is obvious.
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Old September 15 2012, 05:51 PM   #99
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Re: Does the Federation still exist in the 31+th century?

KingDaniels

My meta explanation is consistent with every quote you came up with - and the rest of the S3 scenes involving the temporal cold war, character motivations, etc.

As for the rest, your post is just repeating previous ones - to which I already answered - plus one-two hand-wavings more. Really, responding in detail again would have no point; you would just keep repeating yourself.
Obvious unpleasentness is obvious.
On your part.
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Old September 15 2012, 06:21 PM   #100
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Re: Does the Federation still exist in the 31+th century?

I still think it would be extremely unlikely, if not impossible, for the Sphere Builders to return (if they survived, which is not entirely clear) and get the Expanse back up at all, let alone to cover 1/4 of the galaxy as shown in "Azati Prime". As has been pointed out, that would take too long. Even if the Sphere Builders immediately started over after "Zero Hour" destroyed the Expanse, there's no way they'd have enough time to cover a quarter of the galaxy in only 400 years. And like I said, they wouldn't consider it worth the effort, either. Now that it's common knowledge how to destroy the Spheres themselves.

Let us just accept that the 26th century as "Azati Prime" showed was an alternate timeline, nothing more. Wouldn't be the first time, either. Daniels showed it to Archer to manipulate him, because that's the motivation behind everything Daniels ever said to him.
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Old September 15 2012, 06:38 PM   #101
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Re: Does the Federation still exist in the 31+th century?

Both sides have enough theories to make both outcomes of the argument plausible and since it's 99% likely to never come up in canon, neither side is technically right or wrong. Canon is what you make of it.
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Old September 15 2012, 09:57 PM   #102
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Re: Does the Federation still exist in the 31+th century?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Even if the Sphere Builders immediately started over after "Zero Hour" destroyed the Expanse, there's no way they'd have enough time to cover a quarter of the galaxy in only 400 years. And like I said, they wouldn't consider it worth the effort, either. Now that it's common knowledge how to destroy the Spheres themselves.
Given that they possess time travel and time communications, how does "having enough time" enter into it?

Pick a different part of the galaxy a few thousand light years away and centuries in the past (about when they started last time) and begin again.

Archer can't provide the people in that section of the galaxy with the solution, because it hasn't been found yet, and won't for centuries.

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Old September 16 2012, 10:17 AM   #103
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Re: Does the Federation still exist in the 31+th century?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
KingDaniel - if you're watching the episode, care to quote Daniels' exact line about the number of federation members? - it's not timeline specific. On the other hand, it's specific regarding the relative number of members.
ARCHER: The Federation. You've mentioned them before.
DANIELS: Vulcans, Andorians, Ithanites (sp?), Klingons. Dozens of species, including humans. All unified in a powerful alliance.
Coming back to this, it's not clear what year Daniels is speaking of, but the Federation would at that time be including the Klingons. This would place it sometime after Nemesis.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
As for the size of the Federation: Daniels' line leaves a lot of room. There are, AFAIK, about 150 members of the Federation in TOS' time.
150 in Picard's time, there no figure at all for Kirk's time, for all we know the Federation membership during TOS could have reached several hundred members and then gradually fell to the 150 member figure.

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
The number 155 refers to member species, not worlds.
Kind of what I took from Picard's statement, over 150 species. Or species "home worlds."

LILY: How many planets are in this Federation?
PICARD: Over one hundred and fifty
It difficult to reconcile Picard's figure (and the novel-verse's 155) with Daniels "dozens." True, thirteen dozens is the quoted number, but it seems a ackward way of expressing it. Daniels is apparently saying that the Federation in the beyond Nemesis future is considerably smaller than in Picard's time.

Sci wrote: View Post
... but I can't imagine that Federation Membership could be based on anything else. You can't base it on species, after all
Problem is ... that isn't what we saw. Amanda wasn't a Vulcan-woman, she was a Earth-woman, this is how her son referred to her. Amanda never became a "Vulcan," even though she (apparently) lived on Vulcan since before Spock's birth and was married to a Vulcan.

Deanna Troi's Human father was never referred to as a Betazed, even through he lived on the planet, and he was married to a Betazed.

So was Amanda represented in the Federation Council by the representative of her Human species, or the representative of world of her birth, or the representative of world she happen to be living on?

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Old September 16 2012, 03:37 PM   #104
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Re: Does the Federation still exist in the 31+th century?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Even if the Sphere Builders immediately started over after "Zero Hour" destroyed the Expanse, there's no way they'd have enough time to cover a quarter of the galaxy in only 400 years. And like I said, they wouldn't consider it worth the effort, either. Now that it's common knowledge how to destroy the Spheres themselves.
Given that they possess time travel and time communications, how does "having enough time" enter into it?
The Sphere Builders don't have time travel capability. They can perceive alternate timelines, but not actually *travel* in time.
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Old September 16 2012, 03:46 PM   #105
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Re: Does the Federation still exist in the 31+th century?

They can. The Xindi test weapon which attacked Earth had compoments from 420 years in the future, as per quantum dating in "The Expanse". They were also able to send Xindi back to 2003 in "Carpenter Street"

Perhaps the Sphere Builders we saw were from the future, the losers of the battle, who went back to alter history, and while in the past kept an eye on the shifting possible futures?
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