Does the Federation still exist in the 31+th century?

[Edit_XYZ]

Mr. Laser Beam wrote:

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Once the Expanse is destroyed in the 22nd century, the 26th-century version can't dissipate - it will have never existed at all. None of the historical events leading up to it will have happened, either. There can't be a "real" Battle of Procyon V, because that presupposes the existence of an Expanse and Sphere Builders in the 26th century. Thanks to "Zero Hour", those have been wiped out.

One could always explain the improbability/inconsistency in that the sphere builders made, with the Expanse, an attempt to disrupt history that Archer thwarted.
That their original attack is placed into the future, when they very rapidly modified space (we know they can do it from 'Zero hour') and were stopped by the federation at Procyon 5 (which will take place as seen).

[Edit_XYZ]

double post

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Edit_XYZ wrote:

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That their original attack is placed into the future, when they very rapidly modified space (we know they can do it from 'Zero hour') and were stopped by the federation at Procyon 5 (which will take place as seen).

If you're suggesting that the sphere builders can later return, and try again? I highly doubt it. They know it wouldn't work. People in the regular universe know how to defeat them. They wouldn't dare try again. (Assuming they have even survived "Zero Hour", which is not clear.)

[Edit_XYZ]

Mr. Laser Beam wrote:

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If you're suggesting that the sphere builders can later return, and try again? I highly doubt it. They know it wouldn't work. People in the regular universe know how to defeat them. They wouldn't dare try again. (Assuming they have even survived "Zero Hour", which is not clear.)

The sphere builders not surviving 'Zero hour' in their realm? Where exactly did you get this from - with what justification.

They builders only know possible futures AKA probabilities. Improbable != impossible. Improbable can transform into victory.

The federation knows how to defeat them? Sure - everyone knows the mechanics of warfare. Winning is not in the least guaranteed by this.

The sphere builders wouldn't dare try? Again, where do you get it from? They were plenty daring with the expanse.

[NrobbieC]

Edit_XYZ wrote:

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everyone knows the mechanics of warfare.

But we, the audience, don't know the mechanics of temporal warfare. Anything becomes possible.

[Edit_XYZ]

NrobbieC wrote:

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But we, the audience, don't know the mechanics of temporal warfare. Anything becomes possible.

But we do, partially - the first version of spheres, that Archer stopped, was temporal warfare, meant do destroy the federation before its beginning.
Presumably, the federation stopped all such attempts across the timeline, whenever the temporal cold war became hot and changes of the timeline were attempted.

And the builders were defeated at Procyon 5 by conventional warfare - a battle the sphere builders knew is probable they will loose.
But, as said, probability != certainty. Many battles in history were won against the odds; Procyon 5 was not among these (from Daniels' perspective, that is).

[NrobbieC]

Edit_XYZ wrote:

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But we do, partially - the first version of spheres, that Archer stopped, was temporal warfare, meant do destroy the federation before its beginning.
Presumably, the federation stopped all such attempts across the timeline, whenever the temporal cold war became hot and changes of the timeline were attempted.

And the builders were defeated at Procyon 5 by conventional warfare - a battle the sphere builders knew is probable they will loose.
But, as said, probability != certainty. Many battles in history were won against the odds; Procyon 5 was not among these (from Daniels' perspective, that is).

No I meant more along the lines we don't fully know how the factions time travel, how they monitor timelines or defend themselves against possibly being erased from history or navigating paradoxes. Stuff like that.
In Relativity we saw 3 Braxtons simultaneously, that's a paradox in itself.

[Edit_XYZ]

Such detailed knowledge is not necessary in order to have a general idea of the temporal cold - and occasionally hot - war.
Just as it's not necessary to have detailed schematics of a tank to know how it is used in war.

This general idea was pretty well explained:
Multiple factions have agents stationed across the time-stram*. The strategy is MAD - if one faction attacks, the other counterattack, destroying the past of all. It's cold war.
We even saw how hot temporal war looks like in 'Storm front'.

*Presumably, temporal shielding plays a role in ensuring the continued existence of effective counteratack forces upstream, etc, etc.

PS - yes, with time travel you can meet your past self. Not necessarily a paradox; just weird.

[NrobbieC]

I think it would've been interesting for this stuff to have been explored more, hell they could make a series out of it.
My point was really though that anything is possible when you're messing with time.

Although back to the point of the Procyon V, Daniels stated as an historical fact so presumably it was the Sphere Builders first invasion, they were defeated then attacked in the 22nd century.

[Edit_XYZ]

The sphere founders perspective - they wanted to improve their chances at Procyon 5 with the Expanse. They failed. The 26th century invasion proceeded on schedule, the sphere builders believing in their chances of victory.

Daniels' perspective - the order of events may very well be the other way around.

PS - I agree, the temporal cold war was an interesting idea.

[King Daniel]

Looking into the possible futures, the Sphere Builders see themselves losing the battle of Procyon V in the 26th century. They then manipulate the Xindi into attacking Earth in 2153, which leads to the Sphere Builders' being defeated 400 years earlier than in the future they forsaw, and their long term plan of converting our space to make it habitable for themselves (i.e. the spheres and Expanse, both integral to the 26th century war and thousands of years in the making) going up in smoke.

If anything, time was changed, but it was not a loop.

[NrobbieC]

We don't know that was all the Sphere Builders' army, it could simply be just one battalion.

[Edit_XYZ]

KingDaniel wrote:

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Looking into the possible futures, the Sphere Builders see themselves losing the battle of Procyon V in the 26th century. They then manipulate the Xindi into attacking Earth in 2153, which leads to the Sphere Builders' being defeated 400 years earlier than in the future they forsaw, and their long term plan of converting our space to make it habitable for themselves (i.e. the spheres and Expanse, both integral to the 26th century war and thousands of years in the making) going up in smoke.

If anything, time was changed, but it was not a loop.

The sphere builders didn't see themselves losing with certainty; they can't - they didn't see Archer destroying the spheres (the future isn't fixed in star trek). They saw the future of them losing is probable AKA NOT certain.
As for the spheres destroyed in S3 being integral their plans - in Enterprise we saw them transform space with blinding speed.
They tried it again, with a new round of spheres/their technological successor in the 26th century, this time transforming space at full speed. This time, they were stopped at Procyon 5.

Which is the only version which fits what Daniels said and the scenarists' intent (as displayed in the relevant sequences, etc).
Any other interpretation leaves you either willfully ignoring large parts of the sequences, their tone, etc ('momentous event in history', etc) or with FAR larger inconsistencies (the federation not existing to fight if Archer failed; Daniels not caring about massive alterations to the 26th century, etc).

PS
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...6&postcount=71

[Hando]

Edit_XYZ wrote:

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As for the spheres destroyed in S3 being integral their plans - in Enterprise we saw them transform space with blinding speed.

What speed? It took them some 10 centuries to create the "current"/22nd century Delphic Expanse.

According to my calculations: 1 Sphere created every ~13 years.

[Edit_XYZ]

Hando wrote:

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What speed? It took them some 10 centuries to create the "current"/22nd century Delphic Expanse.

According to my calculations: 1 Sphere created every ~13 years.

Watch 'Zero hour' or 'Countdown'.
The speed of the creation of altered space there was many orders of magnitude faster than the usual performance of the spheres.
Fast enough to mount the attack in the 26th century, transform an immense area of space in mere years, and be stopped.