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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old August 24 2012, 09:40 AM   #31
Saito S
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Re: Wesley Crusher: Racist

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
The Borg Queen wrote: View Post
Does "Geostructure" mean planet though, or is just another word that means something vaguely similar to family/household? Perhaps Mordock & Mendon were cousins.
"Geo-" is a prefix that means "earth." We could quibble that in a world where other habitable planets it's been based more on "soil" or simply "planet" than the literal planet called "Earth." "Structure" of course means a construct.

So "geostructure" could either mean "we're from the same planet" or "we're from the same continent" on the planet. Which would mean that Mendon and Mordock we're of the same "race" of Benzites. (Living on different continents would probably be the same on Benzar as it would be on Earth. Humans who evolved in Europe look different than humans who evolved in Africa; in the latter the harsher sun causing more melanin in the skin to develop producing people with darker skin.)

So, again, (in the show context) Mendon and Mordock only "look alike" because they happen to be from the same area of the same planet.

Kidding aside on calling Wesley a racist for his comment, and it was obviously put there to explain to the audience that this wasn't the same Benzite we saw earlier (though there's no reason people would make such a connection given the context of his visiting and being told he has a different name), it's pretty... "Unprofessional" to go up to an alien and assume he's someone of the same race you know from a year ago when a)you were just told his name and b)just told he was visiting on an exchange program and not an officer!
I have to say, I find this a bit baffling.

As Therin points out, Mendon and Mordock were, in fact, physically identical. Yes, this was because they were played by the same actor, to save money - but they decided to use that fact and make a scene out of it, rather than try to ignore it and hope no one would notice.

What I took away from it was that the never-heard-again-in-all-of-Trek term "geostructure" wasn't just another word for "planet", or "continent", or anything similarly familiar to us (Trek has aliens use THOSE words all the time for their own planet, as well as things like province, city, etc; they usually don't bring in outlandish terms at random when an ordinary term will do), but referred to some Benzite-specific thing. Some kind of family or community unit that doesn't have an analogue in Human culture. And furthermore, that when he said "we all look alike", he meant literally. Not "look roughly alike because we're the same race", but actually identical (this being the in-universe explanation/in-joke of sorts tying to the fact that out-of-universe, he's played by the same guy).

Wesley's slip was perhaps a bit unfortunate, but hardly a big deal, given that he's a kid, and he just reacted to the sight of, as far as he could tell, his friend from last year who got accepted to the Academy standing there in a Starfleet uniform. Since Benzites from the same "geostructure" really DO look alike, this is probably something they are used to dealing with when interacting with other races; Mendon certainly didn't seem offended by the exchange.

Until I came here tonight and read this thread, the idea that anyone could come away from this scene with any interpretation OTHER than the above never occurred to me.

Mars wrote: View Post
Not by a long shot. Andorians don't like vulcans for example.
Yeah, and there are others, as well. We saw Human and Ferengi characters being racist toward one another on multiple occasions in DS9, for example.
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Old August 24 2012, 02:38 PM   #32
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Re: Wesley Crusher: Racist

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
"Structure" of course means a construct.

So "geostructure" could either mean "we're from the same planet" or "we're from the same continent" on the planet.
Because planets and continents are constructed?
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Old August 24 2012, 09:54 PM   #33
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Re: Wesley Crusher: Racist

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
"Structure" of course means a construct.

So "geostructure" could either mean "we're from the same planet" or "we're from the same continent" on the planet.
Because planets and continents are constructed?
"structure" doesn't mean "constructed by man."
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Old August 25 2012, 04:42 AM   #34
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Re: Wesley Crusher: Racist

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Start Wreck wrote: View Post
Because planets and continents are constructed?
"structure" doesn't mean "constructed by man."
It can mean things like a valley structure created by a river, but it can also mean a road.

And it can be like a genetic structure, which is either natural or manmade.

Saito S wrote: View Post
What I took away from it was that the never-heard-again-in-all-of-Trek term "geostructure" wasn't just another word for "planet", or "continent", or anything similarly familiar to us [snip] but referred to some Benzite-specific thing.
The current slang meaning of "Geo" is fantastic, awesome, incredible, things really positive. If Mendon and his geostructure are perhaps a genetically created or enhanced segment of the Benzite species, then his statement in the transporter room to Wesley could have been a announcement of pridefulness or arrogance. "We are from the same geostructure, naturally we all look alike." Of course we do, we're perfect.

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Old August 25 2012, 05:33 AM   #35
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Re: Wesley Crusher: Racist

T'Girl wrote: View Post
The current slang meaning of "Geo" is fantastic, awesome, incredible, things really positive. If Mendon and his geostructure are perhaps a genetically created or enhanced segment of the Benzite species, then his statement in the transporter room to Wesley could have been a announcement of pridefulness or arrogance. "We are from the same geostructure, naturally we all look alike." Of course we do, we're perfect.

It... is?

Geo? Awesome and fantastic?

I've never heard that. In what circles does it carry this meaning?

But assuming it's true, while Mendon did actually seem just full of himself enough that it could almost work, I rather doubt that this is what the creators had in mind, and I didn't get that kind of vibe from him in the transporter room scene.
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Old August 25 2012, 05:59 AM   #36
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Re: Wesley Crusher: Racist

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Ar-Pharazon wrote: View Post
Yeah, that's exactly what Wesley is

If anything, Mendon is the racist.

But considering the same actor played both characters, they really do look alike to me.
R. Star wrote: View Post
You know, you can blame Wesley for a lot of things, chief among them being an annoying ass, but rascist? That's stretching things to the point of absurdity or just plain trolling.
LOL!

I was going to do an eye-rollie and say something like "typical Trekkies can't tell when someone is obviously posting in good humor..." but then I realized that now *I* was being prejucide and generalizing.
Touche

I believe those Benzites were supposed to look a like, I mean, completely alike, such as identical twins. Of course the whole dialogue between him and Wesley was to explain to the viewers why he looked identical, but was a different character.

As for Trek displaying all members of a race as being the same in behavior (i.e. greedy Ferengi, violent Klingon), I believe is the result of Trek always mixing up species, race, and culture, as if one can mean the other, and how some times it's all the same thing.

Dividing race from species, is simply a matter of whether two members can produce offspring, if they can, than these are races, if they cannot, these are species. Example: a rottweiler and a pit bull can produce offspring, so they are the same species, but different races. A Brown Recluse and a Black Widow cannot produce offspring, thus they are a different species.
In Trek, beings that evolved over billions of years from other ends of the galaxy can produce offspring, thus they are races, though the chances of two complex organisms such as a klingon and human being genetically compatible in spite of the fact they evolved on separate planets is about as likely as an Irishmen going to China, finding someone identical to himself, including his first, middle, and last name, and having parents identical to his own with the same names.
Culture, on the other hand, is perfectly fine to stereotype, because culture implies a set of commonalities. An example: if you were an actor, and I told you I wanted you to show up ready to play the part of a goth kid, you'd come into the studio dressed in black, black nail polish and lipstick. It would also be reasonable for you to assume that your goth character listens to The Cure, Bauhuas, Joy Division, and a host of black/death metal bands. It would also be reasonable to assume that your character is either going to be a depressive introvert, or a violent introvert, watches horror movies, and has a fascination with death and the macabre, and probably choose wicca or satanism as your spirituality.
Why are these stereotypes allowed? Because these are the most common components of "goth". At least half of those attributes would have to be present in order to make a case for saying someone is "goth".
A culture is defined by it's fashion, attitude, media consumption, traditions, and value system.
Races may commonly have a culture, but many do not fit within the culture i.e. there is a difference between black culture, and being a black person.

It is at least reasonable to assume that the reason different "races" on Star Trek tend to come with their own culture is because their race has developed in isolation before warp technology, and thus have their own culture, complete with a strong set of characteristics that define their culture.
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Old September 2 2012, 04:35 AM   #37
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Re: Wesley Crusher: Racist

Like how Humans only have one culture: American.

Right?
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Old September 2 2012, 11:58 PM   #38
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Re: Wesley Crusher: Racist

RB_Kandy wrote: View Post
It would also be reasonable for you to assume that your goth character listens to The Cure, Bauhuas, Joy Division
These bands are all post-punk, and no modern day Goth would be caught dead actually listening to that pathetic shit.

More likely Fields of the Nephilim, Dead Can Dance, Terminal Gods, or The Gathering


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Old September 3 2012, 11:03 AM   #39
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Re: Wesley Crusher: Racist

nevermind
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Old September 3 2012, 09:19 PM   #40
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Re: Wesley Crusher: Racist

JRoss wrote: View Post
Some of us do have trouble telling people apart and we are not racists. I'm in customer service and I have a hard time. One blonde white woman from another? Not easy. One Shaven-headed square-jawed black man from another? Not easy. Yeah, I can't always tell black people apart, but it's also white people, latino, etc.
I'm in Customer Service, also and I can tell people apart. Every day I get the same people in but there's that little mo where I recognize a new face. Or perhaps it's because I work in the town I've lived in for fifteen years and I know practically everyone anyway, who knows. Back to topic. I don't think Wesley is racist, merely young and naive and that's a common mistake for someone his age to make.
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Old September 15 2012, 08:44 AM   #41
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Re: Wesley Crusher: Racist

T'Girl wrote: View Post
RB_Kandy wrote: View Post
It would also be reasonable for you to assume that your goth character listens to The Cure, Bauhuas, Joy Division
These bands are all post-punk, and no modern day Goth would be caught dead actually listening to that pathetic shit.

More likely Fields of the Nephilim, Dead Can Dance, Terminal Gods, or The Gathering

Well yes those bands are post punk, but so is the goth subculture.

I honestly don't know whether the original goth was subculture or counter culture.

by 2005, Anyone calling themselves goth would be pretty artificial. And today, I don't think goths exist any more, they all morphed into scene and emo. I remember when goth was going through a pop, dance, electronic, phase and I knew that this was a dying fad, and any beauty that could be found in that culture was dying fast.

For me, goth wasn't something strong and definable by the early 2000's. All of it's magic and charm was in the 80's and 90's

Besides when I went with those bands, I was going with the root bands, not every new band like Xandria, Sirenia, Tristania, and every other Scandinavian female fronted band that sounds like Evanescence.

I've never even heard of those bands you mentioned. So I youtubed them, listen to no less than 2 songs from each band. My conclusion:
1. Fields of the Nephilim, sounds a lot like the cure, but without a catchy hook to actually remember the songs by.

2. Dead Can Dance, oh god that's some horrible music. I had flash backs of Enya.

3. Terminal Gods, sounds like Sister Of Mercy. 100% like them. As in I can't possibly tell the two bands apart LOL. Thankfully I liked Sisters Of Mercy.

4. The Gathering, sounds like all that Xandria, Sirenia, Tristania stuff. Though I have found a few good songs by those bands, so maybe I will continue to listen to the gathering.

So that's what the goths listen to today?
Wow, I'm old. Let me see, refuse to acknowledge contributions made by bands that weren't back in my day; check. Tells the youth how silly they are for dressing identically whilst claiming to be an individual, labeling themselves yet exclaiming to not like labels; check. Presuming anyone in high school or college has ever heard of even one band I listen to at that age, and no one has; check. Unwilling to accept change; check. Uses the term "back in my day"; check.
Yup, I'm old. Thanks T'Girl, you know how to cheer a guy up.
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Old September 15 2012, 10:53 AM   #42
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Re: Wesley Crusher: Racist

RB_Kandy wrote: View Post
and every other Scandinavian female fronted band that sounds like Evanescence.
Technically Evanescence sounds like them.
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Old September 16 2012, 02:50 AM   #43
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Re: Wesley Crusher: Racist

Technically Wesley was always in some way shape or form completely racist and rebel to everyone on the ship
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Old September 16 2012, 03:09 AM   #44
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Re: Wesley Crusher: Racist

To be fair, while the various Star Trek alien species were often assigned certain broad cultural traits, the shows took pains to show variations among each race, so they weren't all the same.

As far back as "Balance of Terror," each of the featured Romulans had very different personalities and philosophies. You had the war-weary Commander who just wanted peace and that ambitious underling who wanted battle and glory and political advancement. Not the same at all, even though they came from the same imperial culture.

Ditto for the Ferengi. Sure, the Ferengi are all about profit in general, but Quark, Rom, Nog, the Grand Nagus, etcetera all had very different priorities.

Even among the Vulcans, I think it's safe to say that Spock or T'Pol would not have done the same things Valeris did . . . .
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Old September 16 2012, 04:24 AM   #45
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Re: Wesley Crusher: Racist

edit nevermind, embed youtube didnt work
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