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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate The Eternal Tide.
Outstanding 83 49.70%
Above Average 50 29.94%
Average 27 16.17%
Below Average 2 1.20%
Poor 5 2.99%
Voters: 167. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 15 2012, 02:31 AM   #331
Christopher
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

teacake wrote: View Post
I've been very clear about what difference I think it made. Certainly just whining a whole lot may have achieved the same level of attention as far as internet discussion but the word "boycott" is a useful focal point and a useful rallying cry.
First off, I don't think that "whining" is a fair characterization for discussing one's opinions on a public forum. After all, that's exactly what you're doing right here, so clearly you think it's a worthwhile endeavor in its own right. Do you consider what you're doing now to be "whining?" If not, why is discussing the content of the books any different?

Second, I think that if "boycott" was a focal point, it was in a negative way. There were other ways of rallying interest and attention. Remember the "NOT. DEAD." meme generated and proliferated by protestors of Trip Tucker's death? Boycott is far from the only form of protest.


One problem with these discussions, and I will probably piss someone off here, is that both sides of the discussion have had posts that cross lines and are either very rude or make accusations that could be seen as and may be false. Both sides can then focus on that and lump everyone into these categories.. I am a crazy BBKJ woman who accuses Pocket Books of conspiracies and you are a rude asshole who vents his anti KJ spleen in these threads. I don't think either of these things are true and I'm at times a bit bemused to find people responding to me as though I said every single thing that's been said on the topic personally.
That's a fair point. The extremists in any argument do have a way of dominating and co-opting it, and making people on the other side think that the extreme position is the only one.

But I have to say, from where I stood, it was pretty clear that the BBJ extremists were the ones who first escalated to the point of namecalling and dishonest or grossly misguided allegations. And I think a comment someone made earlier may reveal why. They said something about Janeway having been under attack from the very beginning of the series, and I do know there's truth to that; there was some vicious, very sexist hostility directed against the character from the start. So it's possible that longtime Janeway fans have been fighting against that kind of aggressive negativity for a long time.

But here's the thing: if you get into the habit of fighting, you can forget that not everyone is trying to fight you. And so if you assume someone is hostile when they really aren't, and you strike in what you perceive to be self-defense, then you're actually the attacker. I think maybe that's what happened here -- that Janeway fans so hardened by their battles against the sexist Janeway-bashers over the years saw the unrelated story decision to kill off Janeway as part of that same conflict, and reacted with their habitual force, which seemed like a bewildering and unprovoked attack from the perspective of the Pocket fan community, since we haven't been part of those past struggles. And when we reacted in what we perceived as self-defense (and defense of Pocket's editors and writers), the BBJ side again saw that as more of the ongoing attack and dug down further into the trenches, perceiving themselves as being under seige, when from our perspective, they were the ones who started it.

There's a lesson there. All too often, a conflict is neither side's fault, or both sides', as they both assume they're the ones on the defensive and the other guys are the attackers. So sometimes it's important just to step back and stop fighting -- or at least to question one's own assumptions and try to make sure there's really something to fight over.


teacake wrote: View Post
Why is it sad that my reading taste has resulted in my choosing to not buy a book without a character?
Because those of us who've been reading Kirsten's books all along have found them to be among the best Voyager prose fiction ever written, and some of the best Trek fiction to come along in recent years, so we're sad for you in an empathetic way, because we feel you've been depriving yourself of something very enjoyable. Granted, the books were without one particular character you liked, but there were plenty of other things to enjoy in the books. Okay, maybe if you did read them, you wouldn't have shared our fondness, but maybe you would have, and in that case you would've been missing out on something you would've really liked. And it's natural to feel sad upon seeing someone else deprived of something positive. It's not "sad" in the sense of "you're a pathetic loser," but in the sense of, "ohh, it's a shame you're missing out on something this cool."
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Old September 15 2012, 02:31 AM   #332
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

BillJ wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Why is it sad that my reading taste has resulted in my choosing to not buy a book without a character? Other people don't read some series because they focus on characters they don't like, or are have too many new characters in them.

I'm just confused at the emotive words used to describe my reading choices. It's not "sad", it just is.
Well, the character was in both Full Circle and Unworthy.


I read them. My boycott was about buying, not reading. For others it was about buying and reading. Just like GMO boycotts have a range of different choices.

I don't think anyone's reading choices or buying choices are sad.
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Old September 15 2012, 02:33 AM   #333
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I don't believe this! Janeway's back and the militant BBKJs and anti-BBKJs are still at it?!
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Old September 15 2012, 02:37 AM   #334
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^I want to make it clear that I'm anything but an "anti-KJ." That kind of oversimplification is part of the problem with understanding here. I'm a Janeway fan, but I'm not a fan of resurrection as a rule -- although it can be done effectively if the right story comes along. And I'm emphatically not a fan of misrepresenting the facts. There's no justification for using falsehoods in defense of any position. My partisanship is for truth and accuracy, and if people misrepresent the facts in support of any position -- even, and perhaps especially, my own -- I will call them on it. Because supporting a cause with falsehoods only hurts it.
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Old September 15 2012, 02:37 AM   #335
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Why is it sad that my reading taste has resulted in my choosing to not buy a book without a character?
Because those of us who've been reading Kirsten's books all along have found them to be among the best Voyager prose fiction ever written, and some of the best Trek fiction to come along in recent years, so we're sad for you in an empathetic way, because we feel you've been depriving yourself of something very enjoyable. Granted, the books were without one particular character you liked, but there were plenty of other things to enjoy in the books. Okay, maybe if you did read them, you wouldn't have shared our fondness, but maybe you would have, and in that case you would've been missing out on something you would've really liked. And it's natural to feel sad upon seeing someone else deprived of something positive. It's not "sad" in the sense of "you're a pathetic loser," but in the sense of, "ohh, it's a shame you're missing out on something this cool."
I don't think you speak for everyone when you say it's all about being sad in an empathetic way because I have missed out on something. However I take your word for it, for you, that you meant it that way.

Take heart! I have read everything except CoT which is on order.

The best Treklit I ever read is still Terok Nor by James Swallow though
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Old September 15 2012, 02:47 AM   #336
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JD wrote: View Post
Yeah, but I usually have more of a reason than one character not appearing. I just think it's sad to write off a whole book because one character doesn't appear in it.
So would you still think it sad if people said they wouldn't buy a Batman novel if they killed Batman but kept Robin? What if TPTB of a Batman series of novels did that but kept saying over and over again that as long as the story is good, the Batman novels will still be Batman because they'll still have Robin, Commissioner Gordon and Bruce Wayne's butler. And Batman will still be a huge part of it because he will be mentioned all the time so the fans of his death should just read the books and then form an opinion. And if they get over emotional about the death of a beloved main character then what does that matter? And TPTB of this new series of novels won't give a damn about my views or opinions as a customer but will still want my 8.99 to buy their damned books.

When I buy a book with the title of Star Trek Voyager on the cover I expect it to have Janeway in it. She is the "Batman" to Chakotay's "Robin" Go ahead and think I'm silly or stupid, I don't care. But it seems to me that those who are accusing the BBJ crowd of certain bad behaviors should look in the mirror. For more than 4 years the people that have joined together to speak out about her death have been told your voice doesn't count. Pocket doesn't care about what you want because your views are only a small fraction of the reading audience. Your little boycott while entertaining to us won't ever matter there will always be someone out there to buy our product.

There are some who think that their opinion and their opinion alone is the standing authority on this board and what they have to say about all things TrekLit stands. And these people are worse than the BBJ people (I include myself in that group even though I kept buying and reading the Voy relaunch books) because they never are open to changing their minds. They are never open to listening or respecting other people's opinions and people like the BBJ people should just shut the hell up because you're always wrong.

Where was all this back and forth when the entire Enterprise book series was re-written just to bring back one dead character? Well he wasn't really dead because he was in a holodeck, wink, wink but we'll still base the series off of what written when the show was on the air. I remember TPTB at the time said they didn't like the direction that These Are The Voyages finale of Enterprise and took action to use the books they published to fix what they personally didn't like. The only different between those in charge of Trek novels at the time Enterprise was cancelled and the Bring Back Janeway people is that one group had the keys to the kingdom and one group didn't.

The message is Editors and TBTP and writers always right. And us little old fans are always wrong because we're not smart enough or because we don't get our facts straight enough or don't represent an audience enough to make a difference. Just because you've made some money off of Star Trek doesn't make you more of a fan or more knowledgeable of the franchise than the rest of us. We love Star Trek too you know.

I find that whole notion insulting.

Trip NOT DEAD= a series re-write

Janeway NOT DEAD= rabid fans

I await the responses to tell me how wrong I am. As a Bring Back Janewayer I'm used to it.
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Old September 15 2012, 02:53 AM   #337
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post

teacake wrote: View Post
Why is it sad that my reading taste has resulted in my choosing to not buy a book without a character?
Because those of us who've been reading Kirsten's books all along have found them to be among the best Voyager prose fiction ever written, and some of the best Trek fiction to come along in recent years, so we're sad for you in an empathetic way, because we feel you've been depriving yourself of something very enjoyable. Granted, the books were without one particular character you liked, but there were plenty of other things to enjoy in the books. Okay, maybe if you did read them, you wouldn't have shared our fondness, but maybe you would have, and in that case you would've been missing out on something you would've really liked. And it's natural to feel sad upon seeing someone else deprived of something positive. It's not "sad" in the sense of "you're a pathetic loser," but in the sense of, "ohh, it's a shame you're missing out on something this cool."
Exactly. I didn't mean that as a personal attack, I just think it's a shame that people were passing over some of the best Trek books in the last 5 or 6 yeas just because one character out of a fairly large cast wasn't in the books.
I'm disappointed that Data is gone (for now?) from the TNG books, but I'm still reading them.
I've just never understood how people could be so concerned with one character that they'd be willing to overlook the rest of the cast, and the quality of the stories being told.
I could see if it were a show focused solely on that one character, with everyone else just supporting characters taking a backseat to that one person, but I've always thought of all of the 24th Century shows as focusing pretty equally on the whole ensembles. Even though I do have a handful of favorite characters, I'm still interesting enough in the rest of the characters that I have no problem reading books, or watching episodes that focus on characters other than them. With these kinds of stories I need to have more than one character hold my interest in order for me to stick with them long term.
EDITED TO ADD:
Halliwell wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
Yeah, but I usually have more of a reason than one character not appearing. I just think it's sad to write off a whole book because one character doesn't appear in it.
So would you still think it sad if people said they wouldn't buy a Batman novel if they killed Batman but kept Robin? What if TPTB of a Batman series of novels did that but kept saying over and over again that as long as the story is good, the Batman novels will still be Batman because they'll still have Robin, Commissioner Gordon and Bruce Wayne's butler. And Batman will still be a huge part of it because he will be mentioned all the time so the fans of his death should just read the books and then form an opinion. And if they get over emotional about the death of a beloved main character then what does that matter? And TPTB of this new series of novels won't give a damn about my views or opinions as a customer but will still want my 8.99 to buy their damned books.
Actually they did exactly that a few years ago, and most of the reactions to those stories were fairly positive as far as I know. In one of the big events they killed off Batman, and following a conflict known as Battle For the Cowl, Dick Grayson took up the Batman identity, with Bruce's son as his Robin. They also killed off Captain America during Marvel's Civil War, and Bucky Barnes took on the identity of Captain America. I don't really see where this is any different than Janeway dying and Chakotay taking over as CO of Voyager. I don't understand why you people keep taking this so personally. I'm not saying that there is something wrong with you feeling the way you do, I just don't feel that way. When I say I find it baffling, I don't mean that I think there is something wrong with you, all I'm saying is that that it is so different from how I feel, and how a lot of other people around here seem to feel that I find it surprising.
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Last edited by JD; September 15 2012 at 03:06 AM.
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Old September 15 2012, 03:30 AM   #338
Shane Houston
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JD wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post

teacake wrote: View Post
Why is it sad that my reading taste has resulted in my choosing to not buy a book without a character?
Because those of us who've been reading Kirsten's books all along have found them to be among the best Voyager prose fiction ever written, and some of the best Trek fiction to come along in recent years, so we're sad for you in an empathetic way, because we feel you've been depriving yourself of something very enjoyable. Granted, the books were without one particular character you liked, but there were plenty of other things to enjoy in the books. Okay, maybe if you did read them, you wouldn't have shared our fondness, but maybe you would have, and in that case you would've been missing out on something you would've really liked. And it's natural to feel sad upon seeing someone else deprived of something positive. It's not "sad" in the sense of "you're a pathetic loser," but in the sense of, "ohh, it's a shame you're missing out on something this cool."
Exactly. I didn't mean that as a personal attack, I just think it's a shame that people were passing over some of the best Trek books in the last 5 or 6 yeas just because one character out of a fairly large cast wasn't in the books.
I'm disappointed that Data is gone (for now?) from the TNG books, but I'm still reading them.
I've just never understood how people could be so concerned with one character that they'd be willing to overlook the rest of the cast, and the quality of the stories being told.
I could see if it were a show focused solely on that one character, with everyone else just supporting characters taking a backseat to that one person, but I've always thought of all of the 24th Century shows as focusing pretty equally on the whole ensembles. Even though I do have a handful of favorite characters, I'm still interesting enough in the rest of the characters that I have no problem reading books, or watching episodes that focus on characters other than them. With these kinds of stories I need to have more than one character hold my interest in order for me to stick with them long term.
EDITED TO ADD:
Halliwell wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
Yeah, but I usually have more of a reason than one character not appearing. I just think it's sad to write off a whole book because one character doesn't appear in it.
So would you still think it sad if people said they wouldn't buy a Batman novel if they killed Batman but kept Robin? What if TPTB of a Batman series of novels did that but kept saying over and over again that as long as the story is good, the Batman novels will still be Batman because they'll still have Robin, Commissioner Gordon and Bruce Wayne's butler. And Batman will still be a huge part of it because he will be mentioned all the time so the fans of his death should just read the books and then form an opinion. And if they get over emotional about the death of a beloved main character then what does that matter? And TPTB of this new series of novels won't give a damn about my views or opinions as a customer but will still want my 8.99 to buy their damned books.
Actually they did exactly that a few years ago, and most of the reactions to those stories were fairly positive as far as I know. In one of the big events they killed off Batman, and following a conflict known as Battle For the Cowl, Dick Grayson took up the Batman identity, with Bruce's son as his Robin. They also killed off Captain America during Marvel's Civil War, and Bucky Barnes took on the identity of Captain America. I don't really see where this is any different than Janeway dying and Chakotay taking over as CO of Voyager. I don't understand why you people keep taking this so personally. I'm not saying that there is something wrong with you feeling the way you do, I just don't feel that way. When I say I find it baffling, I don't mean that I think there is something wrong with you, all I'm saying is that that it is so different from how I feel, and how a lot of other people around here seem to feel that I find it surprising.
You people? Who do you think you are calling me or anyone else "you people?" That..they way you just disrespected me is why we people take it personally. Because others have made it that way.
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Old September 15 2012, 03:36 AM   #339
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

What? How was that offensive? I just worded it that way because I knew you were mostly women so I didn't want to offend anyone by saying you guys.
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Old September 15 2012, 03:38 AM   #340
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Let's see.
Janeway was resurrected.
The 'Bring Janeway back' extremists are still going on with butthurt 'how much they are suffering' posts.

Yeah....
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Old September 15 2012, 03:44 AM   #341
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Ok, I apologize for you people. I honestly didn't think about how the term is used most often, and I realize now it was a bad way to phrase what I was trying to say. I honestly didn't mean to be offensive, hell I never meant to offend anyone with what I've been posting. I'm just talking about how I feel compared to how people like you feel, and why I find your attitude confusing. I didn't mean to offend you or say that there is anything wrong with how you feel. I just don't feel that way, and was honestly shocked that people do feel that way. That was all I ever meant by what I've been posting.
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Old September 15 2012, 03:52 AM   #342
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JD wrote: View Post
Ok, I apologize for you people. I honestly didn't think about how the term is used most often, and I realize now it was a bad way to phrase what I was trying to say. I honestly didn't mean to be offensive, hell I never meant to offend anyone with what I've been posting. I'm just talking about how I feel compared to how people like you feel, and why I find your attitude confusing. I didn't mean to offend you or say that there is anything wrong with how you feel. I just don't feel that way, and was honestly shocked that people do feel that way. That was all I ever meant by what I've been posting.
Thanks JD.

And XYZ...no. See we are not butthurting over anything. You see...we won.
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Old September 15 2012, 03:54 AM   #343
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Let's see.
Janeway was resurrected.
The 'Bring Janeway back' extremists are still going on with butthurt 'how much they are suffering' posts.

Yeah....
No, they are objecting to being called "silly" or dishonest, or "extremists", and also being told others are "sad" for them for not agreeing with the others' literary preferences. And still after getting what they asked for in TET (no matter who decided it, or why), there are still by some such postings here, even then!
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Old September 15 2012, 04:00 AM   #344
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Halliwell wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
Ok, I apologize for you people. I honestly didn't think about how the term is used most often, and I realize now it was a bad way to phrase what I was trying to say. I honestly didn't mean to be offensive, hell I never meant to offend anyone with what I've been posting. I'm just talking about how I feel compared to how people like you feel, and why I find your attitude confusing. I didn't mean to offend you or say that there is anything wrong with how you feel. I just don't feel that way, and was honestly shocked that people do feel that way. That was all I ever meant by what I've been posting.
Thanks JD.

And XYZ...no. See we are not butthurting over anything. You see...we won.
So I think we can all agree that at this point it would be best to just agree to disagree and move on.
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Old September 15 2012, 04:00 AM   #345
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Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Halliwell wrote: View Post
And XYZ...no. See we are not butthurting over anything. You see...we won.
Indeed, you won.
And you still manage to be offended by anything - even statements that are in no way offensive.
This is how an extremist too invested in something to let it go, even after he 'won', acts.
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