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Old September 14 2012, 06:29 PM   #91
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
So it seems your argument is because BSG does not map 100% directly to 9/11 and the "war on terror," that means Ron Moore never said the show drew from those events and used them to inform the issues explored.

Glad we have that cleared up.
No, I'm saying since the examples provided are exact opposites, or have almost nothing in common, the show didn't succeed in producing those allegories/parallels.

I've already said I DO NOT QUESTION the legitimacy of the claim that Ron Moore said these things, I question the success in the end Product of making those parallels.

And yes, I understand Allegory, which needs something in common, and isn't achieved with exact opposites
I was never arguing whether or not the show "successfully" allegorized 9/11, but whether it was intended as one, so you have been arguing against a phantom from the start, here.
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Old September 14 2012, 06:34 PM   #92
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
So it seems your argument is because BSG does not map 100% directly to 9/11 and the "war on terror," that means Ron Moore never said the show drew from those events and used them to inform the issues explored.

Glad we have that cleared up.
No, I'm saying since the examples provided are exact opposites, or have almost nothing in common, the show didn't succeed in producing those allegories/parallels.

I've already said I DO NOT QUESTION the legitimacy of the claim that Ron Moore said these things, I question the success in the end Product of making those parallels.

And yes, I understand Allegory, which needs something in common, and isn't achieved with exact opposites
I was never arguing whether or not the show "successfully" allegorized 9/11, but whether it was intended as one, so you have been arguing against a phantom from the start, here.
OK, truce.

But, my first post on this did specify "I don't know if it was their intent, but, it sure didn't show up on the screen as successfully done"
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Old September 15 2012, 12:05 AM   #93
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

"Trinitarian" means "three" and it means "one" according to context. If that seems somewhat deceitful, don't blame me.
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Old September 15 2012, 12:41 AM   #94
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

stj wrote: View Post
"Trinitarian" means "three" and it means "one" according to context. If that seems somewhat deceitful, don't blame me.
Yea, The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost are One, I don't understand how you relate that to Polytheism?

This is no different a concept then a small Company having a single person in charge of Security, Maintenance and Scrap Services
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Old September 15 2012, 02:47 AM   #95
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Orthodox Muslims hold that Three does not actually equal One, which is exactly where it relates to polytheism. (But don't forget about Isis, er, Mary the Queen of Heaven.) The belief that three equals three is one part of Islam that seems to be a reasonable position.

But I've suddenly realized you're just funning. Joke's on me!
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Old September 15 2012, 04:00 AM   #96
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

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Orthodox Muslims hold that Three does not actually equal One, which is exactly where it relates to polytheism. (But don't forget about Isis, er, Mary the Queen of Heaven.) The belief that three equals three is one part of Islam that seems to be a reasonable position.

But I've suddenly realized you're just funning. Joke's on me!
As far as looking for any crack in your argument to debate against, yea...I'm funnin' you, it's not that important to me. But, my actual argument that the Holy Trinity is One, I actually do accept, and I have never heard of that Muslim Interpretation, so thanks for that.

But, it still Brings up the fact, that Six's "One True God" manipulated events to Save the Humans in the end, so, both the Polytheists, and the "Muslim" Cylons, got screwed, since it was the "Muslim" Cylon "One True God" that delivered The Humans (Who worshiped Poly-Gods") to their Promised Land and Smited (Smote?) Cavill and his followers
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Old September 15 2012, 02:00 PM   #97
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Sindatur wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
Orthodox Muslims hold that Three does not actually equal One, which is exactly where it relates to polytheism. (But don't forget about Isis, er, Mary the Queen of Heaven.) The belief that three equals three is one part of Islam that seems to be a reasonable position.

But I've suddenly realized you're just funning. Joke's on me!
As far as looking for any crack in your argument to debate against, yea...I'm funnin' you, it's not that important to me. But, my actual argument that the Holy Trinity is One, I actually do accept, and I have never heard of that Muslim Interpretation, so thanks for that.

But, it still Brings up the fact, that Six's "One True God" manipulated events to Save the Humans in the end, so, both the Polytheists, and the "Muslim" Cylons, got screwed, since it was the "Muslim" Cylon "One True God" that delivered The Humans (Who worshiped Poly-Gods") to their Promised Land and Smited (Smote?) Cavill and his followers
How could it end any other way? The outcome was preordained by the fact that the series was set in our own past.
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Old September 15 2012, 03:34 PM   #98
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Sindatur wrote: View Post
But, it still Brings up the fact, that Six's "One True God" manipulated events to Save the Humans in the end, so, both the Polytheists, and the "Muslim" Cylons, got screwed, since it was the "Muslim" Cylon "One True God" that delivered The Humans (Who worshiped Poly-Gods") to their Promised Land and Smited (Smote?) Cavill and his followers
Just as the Jewish god Yahweh (also transliterated from the Hebrew as Jehovah) is held by Christians to be the same god as the Trinity, Muslims hold Allah to be the same god worshipped by both Jews and Christians, except their teachings from Muhammad have not been corrupted.

Christian Arabs call God "Allah" in Arabic, because in Arabic, "Allah" means the same thing as we English-speakers mean when we say "God." Christians for a long time agreed that Islam was not a heathen religion but a heresy, a corrupted form of worship of God. References to an "Abrahamic" god still point to the theological identity of the Jewish, Christian and Muslim god, whose names in Hebrew, English and Arabic are variously Yahweh, God and Allah. (Except of course when the Jewish god is called Elohim, which is actually plural. We might say in English, the Gods.)

Protestants look forward to God killing all the Jews who haven't converted to Jesus-worship as well as following the Law. The Cylon God turning out to be a formally plural (but really singular) Gods and smiting his false worshippers the Cylons really is very much the same thing.

My experience has been that writers and producers who want to mess around with Big Ideas without bothering to actually think just end up artlessly regurgitating crude, nasty ideas, even ones that give the lie to every humane belief they thought they possessed. When the ideas are about religion, it is essential to take a critical view. Remember, "critical" does not just mean "negative." It means as objective and complete and comparative as possible.

The series absolutely refused to take the religious issues it raised at all seriously, just as 9/11 didn't inspire anything but blanket condemnation of Islam and Muslims personally. I would say for about the same reasons. But even in the later stages, when losing the war in Iraq made the 9/11 story much less useful for making the shananigans seem meaningful, the series refused to take its own issues seriously.

I think it's because they had weird ideas about "respecting" religion. They may have called it allowing the viewer to make his or her own choice. Or they may have even boasted of being intellectually superior in their ability to see shades of grey (or substitute other dimwitted cliche of your choice.) I believe we should just put it down to moral cowardice. If you try to be honest about fictional situtation, your viewers will always be able to draw their own conclusions.
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Old September 15 2012, 05:30 PM   #99
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

I still maintain that one of the loose ends of the show was the unknown number of base ships dotted around space when the big base blew up. How many base ships were there?
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Old September 15 2012, 11:49 PM   #100
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Deckerd wrote: View Post
I still maintain that one of the loose ends of the show was the unknown number of base ships dotted around space when the big base blew up. How many base ships were there?
I think we are supposed to assume they were irrelevant, because the Colony was destroyed, Cavil was dead, and so the Cylons had no leadership and no home base. They also didn't know where the "new" Earth was.
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Old September 19 2012, 04:35 PM   #101
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

stj wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
But, it still Brings up the fact, that Six's "One True God" manipulated events to Save the Humans in the end, so, both the Polytheists, and the "Muslim" Cylons, got screwed, since it was the "Muslim" Cylon "One True God" that delivered The Humans (Who worshiped Poly-Gods") to their Promised Land and Smited (Smote?) Cavill and his followers
Just as the Jewish god Yahweh (also transliterated from the Hebrew as Jehovah) is held by Christians to be the same god as the Trinity, Muslims hold Allah to be the same god worshipped by both Jews and Christians, except their teachings from Muhammad have not been corrupted.

Christian Arabs call God "Allah" in Arabic, because in Arabic, "Allah" means the same thing as we English-speakers mean when we say "God." Christians for a long time agreed that Islam was not a heathen religion but a heresy, a corrupted form of worship of God. References to an "Abrahamic" god still point to the theological identity of the Jewish, Christian and Muslim god, whose names in Hebrew, English and Arabic are variously Yahweh, God and Allah. (Except of course when the Jewish god is called Elohim, which is actually plural. We might say in English, the Gods.)

Protestants look forward to God killing all the Jews who haven't converted to Jesus-worship as well as following the Law. The Cylon God turning out to be a formally plural (but really singular) Gods and smiting his false worshippers the Cylons really is very much the same thing.

My experience has been that writers and producers who want to mess around with Big Ideas without bothering to actually think just end up artlessly regurgitating crude, nasty ideas, even ones that give the lie to every humane belief they thought they possessed. When the ideas are about religion, it is essential to take a critical view. Remember, "critical" does not just mean "negative." It means as objective and complete and comparative as possible.

The series absolutely refused to take the religious issues it raised at all seriously, just as 9/11 didn't inspire anything but blanket condemnation of Islam and Muslims personally. I would say for about the same reasons. But even in the later stages, when losing the war in Iraq made the 9/11 story much less useful for making the shananigans seem meaningful, the series refused to take its own issues seriously.

I think it's because they had weird ideas about "respecting" religion. They may have called it allowing the viewer to make his or her own choice. Or they may have even boasted of being intellectually superior in their ability to see shades of grey (or substitute other dimwitted cliche of your choice.) I believe we should just put it down to moral cowardice. If you try to be honest about fictional situtation, your viewers will always be able to draw their own conclusions.
I think you are reading a lot into those "tea leaves". I haven't seen any mention of 9/11 in the television series, Cylons might be an allegory to terrorists perhaps, in that terrorists "look, act, and feel human, and there are many copies".

I also want to know in what way religion is not taken seriously in BSG, it did have a head Cylon who turned out to be an Angel and not actually in Baltar's head in the first place, also Starbuck apparently came back as an Angel after dying by plunging into a gas giant and somehow ending up dead on Cylon Earth.
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Old September 19 2012, 04:38 PM   #102
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Mars wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
But, it still Brings up the fact, that Six's "One True God" manipulated events to Save the Humans in the end, so, both the Polytheists, and the "Muslim" Cylons, got screwed, since it was the "Muslim" Cylon "One True God" that delivered The Humans (Who worshiped Poly-Gods") to their Promised Land and Smited (Smote?) Cavill and his followers
Just as the Jewish god Yahweh (also transliterated from the Hebrew as Jehovah) is held by Christians to be the same god as the Trinity, Muslims hold Allah to be the same god worshipped by both Jews and Christians, except their teachings from Muhammad have not been corrupted.

Christian Arabs call God "Allah" in Arabic, because in Arabic, "Allah" means the same thing as we English-speakers mean when we say "God." Christians for a long time agreed that Islam was not a heathen religion but a heresy, a corrupted form of worship of God. References to an "Abrahamic" god still point to the theological identity of the Jewish, Christian and Muslim god, whose names in Hebrew, English and Arabic are variously Yahweh, God and Allah. (Except of course when the Jewish god is called Elohim, which is actually plural. We might say in English, the Gods.)

Protestants look forward to God killing all the Jews who haven't converted to Jesus-worship as well as following the Law. The Cylon God turning out to be a formally plural (but really singular) Gods and smiting his false worshippers the Cylons really is very much the same thing.

My experience has been that writers and producers who want to mess around with Big Ideas without bothering to actually think just end up artlessly regurgitating crude, nasty ideas, even ones that give the lie to every humane belief they thought they possessed. When the ideas are about religion, it is essential to take a critical view. Remember, "critical" does not just mean "negative." It means as objective and complete and comparative as possible.

The series absolutely refused to take the religious issues it raised at all seriously, just as 9/11 didn't inspire anything but blanket condemnation of Islam and Muslims personally. I would say for about the same reasons. But even in the later stages, when losing the war in Iraq made the 9/11 story much less useful for making the shananigans seem meaningful, the series refused to take its own issues seriously.

I think it's because they had weird ideas about "respecting" religion. They may have called it allowing the viewer to make his or her own choice. Or they may have even boasted of being intellectually superior in their ability to see shades of grey (or substitute other dimwitted cliche of your choice.) I believe we should just put it down to moral cowardice. If you try to be honest about fictional situtation, your viewers will always be able to draw their own conclusions.
I think you are reading a lot into those "tea leaves". I haven't seen any mention of 9/11 in the television series, Cylons might be an allegory to terrorists perhaps, in that terrorists "look, act, and feel human, and there are many copies".
Why the hell would a TV series set 150,000 years before our time refer directly to 9/11?
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Old September 19 2012, 04:38 PM   #103
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
I still maintain that one of the loose ends of the show was the unknown number of base ships dotted around space when the big base blew up. How many base ships were there?
I think we are supposed to assume they were irrelevant, because the Colony was destroyed, Cavil was dead, and so the Cylons had no leadership and no home base. They also didn't know where the "new" Earth was.
I understand that even with jump capability, although I never understood how base ships were actually powered, there would no chance of them ever finding anyone again, with the exception of each other. However it still niggled.
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Old September 19 2012, 04:44 PM   #104
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Mars wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post

Just as the Jewish god Yahweh (also transliterated from the Hebrew as Jehovah) is held by Christians to be the same god as the Trinity, Muslims hold Allah to be the same god worshipped by both Jews and Christians, except their teachings from Muhammad have not been corrupted.

Christian Arabs call God "Allah" in Arabic, because in Arabic, "Allah" means the same thing as we English-speakers mean when we say "God." Christians for a long time agreed that Islam was not a heathen religion but a heresy, a corrupted form of worship of God. References to an "Abrahamic" god still point to the theological identity of the Jewish, Christian and Muslim god, whose names in Hebrew, English and Arabic are variously Yahweh, God and Allah. (Except of course when the Jewish god is called Elohim, which is actually plural. We might say in English, the Gods.)

Protestants look forward to God killing all the Jews who haven't converted to Jesus-worship as well as following the Law. The Cylon God turning out to be a formally plural (but really singular) Gods and smiting his false worshippers the Cylons really is very much the same thing.

My experience has been that writers and producers who want to mess around with Big Ideas without bothering to actually think just end up artlessly regurgitating crude, nasty ideas, even ones that give the lie to every humane belief they thought they possessed. When the ideas are about religion, it is essential to take a critical view. Remember, "critical" does not just mean "negative." It means as objective and complete and comparative as possible.

The series absolutely refused to take the religious issues it raised at all seriously, just as 9/11 didn't inspire anything but blanket condemnation of Islam and Muslims personally. I would say for about the same reasons. But even in the later stages, when losing the war in Iraq made the 9/11 story much less useful for making the shananigans seem meaningful, the series refused to take its own issues seriously.

I think it's because they had weird ideas about "respecting" religion. They may have called it allowing the viewer to make his or her own choice. Or they may have even boasted of being intellectually superior in their ability to see shades of grey (or substitute other dimwitted cliche of your choice.) I believe we should just put it down to moral cowardice. If you try to be honest about fictional situtation, your viewers will always be able to draw their own conclusions.
I think you are reading a lot into those "tea leaves". I haven't seen any mention of 9/11 in the television series, Cylons might be an allegory to terrorists perhaps, in that terrorists "look, act, and feel human, and there are many copies".
Why the hell would a TV series set 150,000 years before our time refer directly to 9/11?
Yes, why would it? The extermination of mankind is hardly comparable to a terrorist act. I don't know where he gets this Protestantism versus Jews thing either.
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Old September 19 2012, 04:48 PM   #105
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Mars wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Mars wrote: View Post

I think you are reading a lot into those "tea leaves". I haven't seen any mention of 9/11 in the television series, Cylons might be an allegory to terrorists perhaps, in that terrorists "look, act, and feel human, and there are many copies".
Why the hell would a TV series set 150,000 years before our time refer directly to 9/11?
Yes, why would it? The extermination of mankind is hardly comparable to a terrorist act. I don't know where he gets this Protestantism versus Jews thing either.
I don't even know what you are arguing.
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