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Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

 
 
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Old September 14 2012, 04:33 PM   #76
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

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<Sigh> Again with the "It was a 9/11 parallel". NuBSG has almost nothing in common with 9/11, less than 4000 people were killed (Not to make light of it, it was a horrific crime, but, doesn't compare to NuBSG annihilation), a drop in the bucket compared to our 6 Billion population.

In NuBSG, less than 100,000, from 12 planets survived to make the Exodus.

After 9/11, Humanity wasn't running for lives and being hunted and exterminated when we slowed down from running top speed. Maybe it was the writer's intent to make that parallel, I don't know, but, I sure don't see the Parallel, there's nothing at all in common other than a difference in Religion.

The Sudan, for one, is a much more apt comparison, and there are many other historical events that are far more apt comparisons.
The 9/11 parallels were deliberate and elaborated upon by Ron Moore--you know, the executive producer and showrunner. I don't know how you can discount his own words about the show's themes unless you think it is entirely a matter of how the individual viewer interprets it--which is a fair position to take. However, it was a deliberate 9/11 allegory on the part of the show's creators. There is no denying that.
As I said, I don't know if that was indeed their intention, but, it sure didn't play out anything like 9/11, the only thing it had in common with The 9/11 attack was a difference of Religion. The method of Cylon attack, the devestation of the attack, the hunting and exterminating, the loss of life of over 90% of the Population and the loss of Society, The Martial Law, The Dwindling and lack of Resources, The Politics, etc, etc. None of that in NuBSG has anything in common with the 9/11 attack of Al Quaeda

I don't dispute the claim that it was their intention, I dispute that the end Product succeeded in having any parallel other than a Difference of Religion.
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Old September 14 2012, 04:36 PM   #77
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

I have to say I'm having difficulty seeing any parallels myself.
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Old September 14 2012, 04:36 PM   #78
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
<Sigh> Again with the "It was a 9/11 parallel". NuBSG has almost nothing in common with 9/11, less than 4000 people were killed (Not to make light of it, it was a horrific crime, but, doesn't compare to NuBSG annihilation), a drop in the bucket compared to our 6 Billion population.

In NuBSG, less than 100,000, from 12 planets survived to make the Exodus.

After 9/11, Humanity wasn't running for lives and being hunted and exterminated when we slowed down from running top speed. Maybe it was the writer's intent to make that parallel, I don't know, but, I sure don't see the Parallel, there's nothing at all in common other than a difference in Religion.

The Sudan, for one, is a much more apt comparison, and there are many other historical events that are far more apt comparisons.
The 9/11 parallels were deliberate and elaborated upon by Ron Moore--you know, the executive producer and showrunner. I don't know how you can discount his own words about the show's themes unless you think it is entirely a matter of how the individual viewer interprets it--which is a fair position to take. However, it was a deliberate 9/11 allegory on the part of the show's creators. There is no denying that.
As I said, I don't know if that was indeed their intention, but, it sure didn't play out anything like 9/11, the only thing it had in common with The 9/11 attack was a difference of Religion. The method of Cylon attack, the devestation of the attack, the hunting and exterminating, the loss of life and Society, The Martial Law, The Dwindling and lack of Resources, The Politics, etc, etc. None of that in NuBSG has anything in common with the 9/11 attack of Al Quaeda
I'm thinking you aren't realizing what an allegory is. Everything doesn't have to be a straight 1:1 for it to be allegorical. BSG had these elements, directly pulled from 9/11 and the "war on terror" in general, deliberately so by the writers:

* Sudden and shocking attack by an enemy hardly anyone was thinking about.
* Sleeper agents hidden in your midst.
* A virulent and violent religion driving your enemies to attack you.
* Suicide bombers.
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Old September 14 2012, 04:39 PM   #79
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

I'm sorry but that sounds like a bit of a stretch to me. You might as well say it was a Pearl Harbour allegory.
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Old September 14 2012, 04:41 PM   #80
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

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To sum up: principles that preserve and stabilize your society are worth keeping; principles that will get your civilization annihilated are not worth keeping. The series was never really willing to have an honest conversation about this. Characters and storylines vacillated back and forth on it, which may be true to life, but makes for lousy narrative.
I noticed that, too.

To me, the out ultimately seemed to be that it was "just a sci-fi show." In particular, the show was a re-imagining of BSG. Therefore, Adama at least and in particular had to be good and noble, ultimately, or else the show would divorce itself too far from the original to really deserve to be called BSG anymore. In other words, the important characters, at heart, had to be archetypes, because of the genre.

That meant the writers could play the Picard trope, "The line must be drawn here, this far, no further!" (Incidently, RDM was co-author for Star Trek: First Contact. Coincidence?)
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Old September 14 2012, 04:43 PM   #81
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Except the showrunners said publicly they intended it as a 9/11 allegory.

I don't know why you guys are arguing, honestly. Ron Moore wasn't exactly quiet about this. It's not that it was meant just as a direct allegory of the 9/11 attacks, either, but the things we dealt with after it, as a culture, like the limits of freedom, dealing with a "hidden" enemy, and things like that. Much of it was thematic rather than direct transposition of events into a fictional universe (though there was some of that.)
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Old September 14 2012, 04:47 PM   #82
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

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Except the showrunners said publicly they intended it as a 9/11 allegory.

I don't know why you guys are arguing, honestly. Ron Moore wasn't exactly quiet about this. It's not that it was meant just as a direct allegory of the 9/11 attacks, either, but the things we dealt with after it, as a culture, like the limits of freedom, dealing with a "hidden" enemy, and things like that. Much of it was thematic rather than direct transposition of events into a fictional universe (though there was some of that.)
Totally.

As the show went on it had the "ripped from the headlines" vibe going on with issues like Abu Ghraib, which if not fallout from 9/11 then I don't know what the fuck it was.
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Old September 14 2012, 04:59 PM   #83
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Deckerd wrote: View Post
I'm sorry but that sounds like a bit of a stretch to me. You might as well say it was a Pearl Harbour allegory.
Precisely, there are so many other events and "wars" throughout history that can be pointed at just as legitimately, and most of them moreso.

To slap the "It's a 9/11 Parallel" label on it, IMHO, is just catering to folks who don't know any better and actually believe 9/11 was the worst and ultimate event, ever, and I gotta believe Ron Moore is far too intelligent/knowledgeable to be in the camp that believes that
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Old September 14 2012, 05:04 PM   #84
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

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Except the showrunners said publicly they intended it as a 9/11 allegory.

I don't know why you guys are arguing, honestly. Ron Moore wasn't exactly quiet about this. It's not that it was meant just as a direct allegory of the 9/11 attacks, either, but the things we dealt with after it, as a culture, like the limits of freedom, dealing with a "hidden" enemy, and things like that. Much of it was thematic rather than direct transposition of events into a fictional universe (though there was some of that.)
Totally.

As the show went on it had the "ripped from the headlines" vibe going on with issues like Abu Ghraib, which if not fallout from 9/11 then I don't know what the fuck it was.
Abu Ghraib? What in the world had any parallel to Abu Ghraib? Are you talking about Admiral Caine's Captive Six? I have no clue how that is in any way common to Abu Ghraib?
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Old September 14 2012, 05:14 PM   #85
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

If you literally "have no clue" then I'm going to just bow out of this conversation. Thank you.
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Old September 14 2012, 05:23 PM   #86
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Admiral's Lover, who turns out to be spy, which pisses the Admiral off so bad, she locks up her former lover, and lets her men rape her, no secrecy, it's just right out there open.

As opposed to a whole prison full of enemies, captured on the battlefield, secretly being tortured and degraded by mercenaries (not the Actual Military, but, paid Contractors) who were doing it in secret, flashing pictures to folks, and The Government was actively covering it up.

Those two situations have less in common to each other then the NuBSG situation would have to A Man getting dumped by his girlfriend, and then holding her hostage and taking revenge on her.
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Old September 14 2012, 05:46 PM   #87
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

In the pilot episode we find that Cylon spines light up during sex. But we also find out that you can't distinguish Cylons and humans despite the peanut bulbs in their vertebrae! It was undeniable from the first that the Cylons were not characters in any rational sense.

The suicide bombings; the United Flight 93 allegory in "33" the explicit threat that the hijacked prison ship posed (by being crashed in a suicide attack a la 9/11); the use of subversion instead of straightforward military attacks (no Islamic government has attacked the US since the days of the Barbary pirates, if I remember correctly); the emphasis on the religious motivation; the monotheism (orthodox Muslims hold that Trinitarianism, the predominant Christian theology, as well as some doctrines about Mary are equivalent to polytheism); Colonial society is portrayed as a secular one---not even the priestess was devoted to a particular god or goddess in this supposedly polytheistic society!---making the Colonials effectively religiously pluralistic, i.e., "free" and "democratic," just like US; the absolute refusal to countenance any discussion of any motive for the attacks other than innate and uncaused malignity: All these things indicate that the Cylons were essentially Muslims in a 9/11 series.

There is no clear divide between religious and racial bigotry. The anti-Semitic tradition in the majority Christianity appears to be the reason all Muslims are so commonly equated only to Arabs, and anti-Semtism is notoriously both racial and religious (and when Jews are identified as Communist plutocrats, politically conservative.) If you don't see any equation of Cylons with Muslims, I suppose that you won't be offended by the new BSG (although its writing flaws offer cause for boredom.) However, it is really hard to understand how it can be unacceptable for someone to be offended by the series when they do so that equation.

Even by the end, when the blatant magical thinking has taken over rational plotting, the Hand of God pushing the corpse to annihilate the Cylons expresses the His judgment on the Cylons=Muslims. It was never in the cards that the supposed realism of the series would result in humanity's mere escape, much less its annihilation. As a 9/11 series, it had to end in the defeat of the Cylons=Muslims, and as such, the guilt-free wish fulfillment is having God do it Himself. (But we got to daydream a little about doing it ourselves, heh heh.)

Again, if the 9/11 aspect went over your head, I'm sure that the series was just badly/weirdly written. Again, considering how judgmental people can be about mere bad writing, refusing to accept that people can reject a show for racism is really bizarre. The new BSG was however highly praised for its topical relevance. Indeed, only that and the hot chicks/hot sex were ever singled out for praise. For many people I think it's the 9/11 aspect that gives the otherwise rather drab yet pompous tone of the show a weight that made it tolerable.

PS
To slap the "It's a 9/11 Parallel" label on it, IMHO, is just catering to folks who don't know any better and actually believe 9/11 was the worst and ultimate event, ever, and I gotta believe Ron Moore is far too intelligent/knowledgeable to be in the camp that believes that.
Yes, the premises of the show incorporated a wildly right-wing view of current events, which safely limited every pretense of neutrality and even-handedness and openness to dissenting opinion. But it has nothing to do with intelligence or knowledge, it has to do with moral integrity, and I have no reason to rate Moore's integrity very highly. And by the way, the Abu Ghraib episode was "Flesh and Bone." Since this turned out to be an episode about a Cylon psychologically torturing sweet Starbuck while feeling no pain itself we have an excellent example of how reactionary the show's take on current events really was. Everybody knew that stuff worse than Abu Ghraib was going on before the pictures surfaced and most either didn't care or even approved. The scandal was that the pictures meant people had to talk about it. The new BSG offered a bunch of BS as its contribution to the so-called debate.
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Old September 14 2012, 06:08 PM   #88
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

There was boatloads of straight up, concentrated military attacks by the Cylon Government, spies and subversion are used in any war/conflict, so, that in itself, doesn't lend to the "War Against Terror", when you also have the Straight Forward Military Attacks by the enemy. Subversion and spies was only one tactic, not, the only tactic.

Not really sure how you can equate Christianity to Polytheism. Polytheism is multiple Gods, Christianity is a Single God. 9/11 and the War on Terrorism wasn't/isn't Our Gods versus your God, it was/is Our God versus your God. Plus, in NuBSG, it apparently wasn't the Colonials Multiple Gods that won the Day, it was The Cylon's "One True God", so how does that work out? Is that supposed to mean Allah betrayed his followers and supported the Colonials who never worshipped him?
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Old September 14 2012, 06:10 PM   #89
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

So it seems your argument is because BSG does not map 100% directly to 9/11 and the "war on terror," that means Ron Moore never said the show drew from those events and used them to inform the issues explored.

Glad we have that cleared up.
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Old September 14 2012, 06:22 PM   #90
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

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So it seems your argument is because BSG does not map 100% directly to 9/11 and the "war on terror," that means Ron Moore never said the show drew from those events and used them to inform the issues explored.

Glad we have that cleared up.
No, I'm saying since the examples provided are exact opposites, or have almost nothing in common, the show didn't succeed in producing those allegories/parallels.

I've already said I DO NOT QUESTION the legitimacy of the claim that Ron Moore said these things, I question the success in the end Product of making those parallels.

And yes, I understand Allegory, which needs something in common, and isn't achieved with exact opposites
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