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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old September 14 2012, 08:19 AM   #16
Timo
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Re: Stiles in Balance of Terror

According to memory alpha the excelsior captain's name was spelled "styles" and the guy from balance of terror is "stiles"
That didn't stop the Reeves-Stevenses from treating the two characters as one and the same in the novel Prime Directive. An interesting possibility with interesting possibilities - but the book went the way of displaying continuing and growing friction between Kirk and Stiles/Styles in the TOS era, in order to "excuse" the failure of Styles/Stiles to be Kirk's best friend and staunchest supporter in ST3. A bit unnecessary IMHO.

There would definitely be something very wrong about that.
I don't think you see the entire picture here. If Vulcans and Romulans are one people with one agenda (a gigantic if, but a natural conclusion to jump to, in the circumstances), then what happens next must logically be that Spock tries to destroy the Enterprise. If he fails, and Kirk manages to report back, Vulcans elsewhere, everywhere, will immediately attack the Federation. The green-blooded enemies have run out of options and out of time, and must proceed or perish. And considering that an attack was launched after a long silence, it must be assumed that the enemies are ready to proceed on all fronts.

If, on the other hand, Spock is not in cahoots with the presently revealed villains, it might be simply because Spock is an outcast. Internment of those Vulcans responsible for the original conspiracy against the Federation, the one where the identity of the enemy was so cunningly hidden, is still prudent.

If the connection between the evil elves on the viewscreen and the Vulcanoids back home is as tenuous as the one between the evil human-lookalikes on Eminiar or Gideon and the humans back home, then there is no reason to act against Spock or Vulcans in any way. But can Stiles bet the future of mankind on that? He feels he is uniquely positioned to question the unquestionable thanks to his historical expertise; now, can he ramp up the courage to assault Spock and fulfil his duty as a Starfleet officer?

Timo Saloniemi
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Old September 14 2012, 01:25 PM   #17
Knight Templar
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Re: Stiles in Balance of Terror

Conflicts on Earth can be ended in reconcilliation because there is continued interaction between the two sides after the war over the years afterwards. Like the U.S. civil war.

But the Romulans were basically "unseen, unheard" for a century. Thus the predominate view of them on Earth was "fixed" at what it had been at the end of the war.
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Old September 14 2012, 03:53 PM   #18
Timo
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Re: Stiles in Balance of Terror

Excellent point.

Also, Romulans can carry a grudge longer than humans, as they supposedly have longer lifespans (and perhaps also longer generations, although that is neither here nor there). The Commander and Centurion of "Balance of Terror" spoke of serving together in numerous campaigns; since they would be imprisoned inside the Neutral Zone that supposedly separated Romulus and Remus from the rest of the universe, they could only be referring to infighting - or then to the old war with Earth... Perhaps the Commander had once slain a Stiles or two?

The hundred years of "silence" might in practice consist of a hundred years of subspace dialogue, in which the Romulans sounded like a broken North Korean propaganda record. That'd keep certain humans permanently pissed off, too!

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Old September 14 2012, 05:03 PM   #19
t_smitts
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Re: Stiles in Balance of Terror

Timo wrote: View Post
Excellent point.

Also, Romulans can carry a grudge longer than humans, as they supposedly have longer lifespans (and perhaps also longer generations, although that is neither here nor there). The Commander and Centurion of "Balance of Terror" spoke of serving together in numerous campaigns; since they would be imprisoned inside the Neutral Zone that supposedly separated Romulus and Remus from the rest of the universe, they could only be referring to infighting - or then to the old war with Earth... Perhaps the Commander had once slain a Stiles or two?

The hundred years of "silence" might in practice consist of a hundred years of subspace dialogue, in which the Romulans sounded like a broken North Korean propaganda record. That'd keep certain humans permanently pissed off, too!

Timo Saloniemi
You're assuming that simply because the Romulans had no contact with the Federation, that they had no contact with other neighboring species.

The Romulans were pretty supposedly isolated from the Federation again in much of the 24th Century, but still had frequent conflicts with the Klingons (Naredra III, Khitomer Massacre, the attack in which Martok got a battlefield promotion)
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Old September 14 2012, 08:00 PM   #20
Timo
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Re: Stiles in Balance of Terror

You're assuming that simply because the Romulans had no contact with the Federation, that they had no contact with other neighboring species.
The thing is, the episode itself is explicit about it: the RNZ completely isolates the Romulans from everybody.

Of course, all later Trek references to Romulans serve to moderate that initial claim (that is, they establish that Spock told a misleading untruth). So yes, the two villains could certainly have been veterans of fights with Klingons or Kinshaya or whatever.

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Old September 14 2012, 09:19 PM   #21
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Re: Stiles in Balance of Terror

Timo wrote: View Post

3) Stiles' distrust of Spock and his entire species is a very rational concern, really. It's not that there would be something wrong about wanting to throw Spock in the brig and send a message to Earth recommending internment of all Vulcans. It's just that Stiles is being circumspect about it, insinuating rather than accusing. Which I guess is the most he dares do, what with Spock being his superior and all.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo wrote: View Post

There would definitely be something very wrong about that.
I don't think you see the entire picture here. If Vulcans and Romulans are one people with one agenda (a gigantic if, but a natural conclusion to jump to, in the circumstances), then what happens next must logically be that Spock tries to destroy the Enterprise. If he fails, and Kirk manages to report back, Vulcans elsewhere, everywhere, will immediately attack the Federation. The green-blooded enemies have run out of options and out of time, and must proceed or perish. And considering that an attack was launched after a long silence, it must be assumed that the enemies are ready to proceed on all fronts.

If, on the other hand, Spock is not in cahoots with the presently revealed villains, it might be simply because Spock is an outcast. Internment of those Vulcans responsible for the original conspiracy against the Federation, the one where the identity of the enemy was so cunningly hidden, is still prudent.

If the connection between the evil elves on the viewscreen and the Vulcanoids back home is as tenuous as the one between the evil human-lookalikes on Eminiar or Gideon and the humans back home, then there is no reason to act against Spock or Vulcans in any way. But can Stiles bet the future of mankind on that? He feels he is uniquely positioned to question the unquestionable thanks to his historical expertise; now, can he ramp up the courage to assault Spock and fulfil his duty as a Starfleet officer?

Timo Saloniemi
No that is not a natural conclusion to jump to at all. That's a racist and irrational conclusion to jump to. Because the only basis Stiles has is that they look alike. It's incredibly stupid, if Spock was in cahoots with the Romulans he could have destroyed the ship as soon as he knew the enemies "are ready to proceed on all fronts".. there wouldn't be time for discussion.

You said there would be nothing wrong with recommending the internment of all vulcans. Sorry, but no, that would be very wrong. It doesn't matter if there were vulcan spies or some vulcans may have been working secretly with romulans (which they weren't, it was a conspiracy of a racist human being racist), you don't punish an entire race of people for it. Lol try telling George Takei that... Imprisoning all Vulcans on Earth, including children, because there might be some vulcan spies according to some clearly panicky racist? A species that has done nothing but help to advance mankind? That's incredibly wrong. You said that "Stiles' distrust of Spock and his entire species is a very rational concern" Are you crazy?

Sometimes it seems like you type these long ass explanations and happen to just throw in some crazy stuff to see if anyone is paying attention.
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Old September 14 2012, 10:00 PM   #22
Romulus Prime
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Re: Stiles in Balance of Terror

t_smitts wrote: View Post
The whole backstory of Stiles' bitterness towards the Romulans (which later transfers to Spock) doesn't really work if the war was supposed to have taken place a century before the episode.

He's clearly nowhere near old enough to have felt any of his family losses personally. It's like a present-day twentysomething hating Germans because he had relatives killed in action in World War I.
Err, millitants in the Middle East often site the Crusades as a means to be violent or stoke hatred towards Europeans, and it's been about 7 centuries since the last one took place. Then you have the animosity between the North and South after the American Civil War, some of which exist even today. Both these examples are things happening between humans on Earth. How is something like a guy carrying a grudge from the (relatively) recent deaths of family members at the hands of the Romulans - aggressive aliens - so beyond disbelief?

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Old September 14 2012, 10:03 PM   #23
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Stiles in Balance of Terror

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Captain Rob wrote: View Post
Does anyone know if the Captain Stiles of the USS Excelsior seen in STIV was meant to be the same Stiles from this episode? Or perhaps a relative?
According to memory alpha the excelsior captain's name was spelled "styles" and the guy from balance of terror is "stiles"
I'm sure they "really" are different people, but to be fair, neither spelling was actually used onscreen (credits notwithstanding). It could be that the writers of ST III might have intended it to be the same character but just didn't bother to check the spelling.

Then again, Styles was a stuck-up egotistical jackass, and Stiles appeared to be a normal guy who just hated Romulans due to his family history. So they're probably not the same person.

Also: The novel Prime Directive did NOT assume that Styles and Stiles are the same.
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Old September 15 2012, 02:46 AM   #24
Bubbles McGee
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Re: Stiles in Balance of Terror

Maurice wrote: View Post
Stiles's reactions are in part related to deleted dialog from the episode (see this article on Orion Press for the full details)

INSERT - SHIP'S VIEWING SCREEN

The attacking vessel can now be seen definitely to be some modified version of a starship saucer main section...........
HANSON'S VOICE
You see it, Enterprise?! Starship
design. Warn Earth...

(STATIC CRACKLE)
... espionage, stolen our designs... traitors...
Then later, before the reveal of the Romulans, Kirk and Stiles' exchange in the script is:

STILES
(interrupting)
... and in a vessel remarkably similar
to ours
. The Outpost Commander
mentioned "espionage."
Add to that
the fact it was a sneak attack...

KIRK
Are you questioning my orders,
Mister Stiles?

STILES
Negative, sir. I'm pointing out that
we don't even know what the
Romulans look like, maybe just like
us.
We could have Romulans aboard
our own ship.
So, by the time they SEE the Romulans, Stiles has already had suspicions of Romulan spies, and lo and behold, Spock looks just like one.
Thank-you for this! I never knew about it and I always thought Stiles' claim about spies (as well as Sulu's backing of it and Kirk's ultimate acceptance of the concern) really weird and out of place. It makes perfect sense now. Wonder why they would cut something like that out; it seems kind of integral to the whole sub-plot involving Stiles and Spock.
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Old September 15 2012, 10:27 AM   #25
Maurice
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Re: Stiles in Balance of Terror

Timo wrote: View Post
You're assuming that simply because the Romulans had no contact with the Federation, that they had no contact with other neighboring species.
The thing is, the episode itself is explicit about it: the RNZ completely isolates the Romulans from everybody.
[citation needed]

Here's what Spock reports about the Romulans:
SPOCK
Referring to the map on your screens, you will note beyond the moving position of our vessel, a line of Earth outpost stations. Constructed on asteroids, they monitor the Neutral Zone established by treaty after the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago.
As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought, by our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels, which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous, and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth. The treaty, set by sub-space radio, established this Neutral Zone, entry into which by either side, would constitute an act of war. The treaty has been unbroken since that time.
Nothing there about the Romulans being isolated, merely that neither side nor their allies had even seen the other.
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Old September 15 2012, 02:36 PM   #26
Anwar
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Re: Stiles in Balance of Terror

Kirk says in a Captain's Log that the Neutral Zone is meant to isolate Romulus and Remus from the rest of the Galaxy, though. He may have just been exaggerating.

OR

This episode was written with the Romulans being similar to the Kzinti from Larry Niven's Known Space series, wherein after being defeated numerous times by humanity the Kzinti were punished by having their world be blockaded from the rest of the Galaxy. Later they changed their minds and had the Neutral Zone just buffer them from the Federation but not everywhere else.
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Old September 16 2012, 06:20 AM   #27
Knight Templar
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Re: Stiles in Balance of Terror

With hundred year lifespans being very routine by the 22nd century (as has often been implied and even said outright in various novels, including the novelization of ST:TMP where Kirk who is around 40 at that point thinks he might've "lived another century" as the V'ger energy bolt approaches) then anger about a war among humans makes a lot more sense.

The grandfather of Stiles who was severely injured in the war and lost two brothers and many friends in the war could've still talked about the "damned treacherous Romulans" at every reunion and family get together that young Stiles attended.

Remember that up until 1980, the south was called the "solid south" for the Democratic Party because southernors still would not vote for a Republican due to lingering anger over the Civil War.
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Old September 16 2012, 07:55 AM   #28
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Re: Stiles in Balance of Terror

t_smitts wrote: View Post
It's like a present-day twentysomething hating Germans because he had relatives killed in action in World War I.
You don't think that happens?
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Old September 16 2012, 09:19 AM   #29
Maurice
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Re: Stiles in Balance of Terror

Anwar wrote: View Post
Kirk says in a Captain's Log that the Neutral Zone is meant to isolate Romulus and Remus from the rest of the Galaxy, though. He may have just been exaggerating.
You know, I'd forgotten that line, so I stand corrected on their being no such reference. That said, the line sounds like "from the rest of the [known] galaxy" or "us".
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Old September 18 2012, 01:24 PM   #30
Timo
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Re: Stiles in Balance of Terror

Kirk might also be quoting an old slogan, one grossly outdated by historical developments now, but at least as closely associated with the RNZ as the phrase "peace in our time" is with WWII.

You said that "Stiles' distrust of Spock and his entire species is a very rational concern" Are you crazy?
Perhaps. But I do maintain that the evidence was very much in favor of a species-wide conspiracy, from a species known to have fought a species-wide war against the entire mankind - probably one aiming at annihilation and lacking in mercy and other niceness, judging both by the briefing scene dialogue and by the later evidence of the Romulan xenophobia. Our heroes ran into Space Nazis here, and were belatedly awakened to the fact that people in their midst had been wearing the uniforms, boots and swastikas all the time - every man, woman and child of them. Stiles' concerns would be about as racist or counterfactual or falsely generalizing as the claim "all blacks have skin colors in shades of brown". What practical significance the claims would have would remain to be seen.

Sometimes it seems like you type these long ass explanations and happen to just throw in some crazy stuff to see if anyone is paying attention.
I just happen to wonder if people really are as stuck with their assumptions as they appear to be, when the fantastic science fiction context really flies in the face of just about any assumption we dare make.

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