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Old September 12 2012, 10:57 PM   #16
Hando
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

R. Star wrote: View Post
Well the Federation has a history of signing dumb treaties. I was always under the impression from the episodes as presented that in exchange for peace, the Federation pledged not to devolop cloaking technology. I could see the Romulans insisting on this as a condition as it would give them an edge in any future encounters.

I'm honestly surprised the Dominion War and/or Shinzon incident didn't kill this off though.
I vote for this. Federation citizens and the Federation in general has adapted an appeasement policy from the get go.
The other side can break treaties as many times as they want, but there is just no response from the Federation.
Kzinti, Romulans, Tholians, Tzinkati are still around, still are enemies although being defeated by the Federation.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
It probably DID if "All Good Things" is any indication. In the time it takes for Beverly to get fed up with Jean Luc's bullshit, divorce him, then get her own command of a medical ship (time enough for B4 to become an oxford scholar and Riker to take command of the Enterprise-E) cloaking devices will be standard issue on Starfleet ships.

Something else to consider: the neutral zone treaty applies to Federation starships, of course... which is to say Starfleet ships. It doesn't seem to apply to civilian ships from either side, which are doubtless subject to all kinds of invasive inspections and harsh tariffs at the neutral zone outposts. The Algeron treaty probably doesn't apply to civilians either, and certain civilian operators could probably get away with operating commercially available cloaking devices for espionage purposes. They wouldn't fool romulan or Federation sensors, of course, but they might be enough to, say, hide a holoship in a lake somewhere or fool the locals of some planet you're scamming by pretending to be the devil incarnate.
I suppose the Treaty of Algeron also contains a clear definition of a Cloaking device, and only this technology is prohibited in the Federation.

Why do you think civilian ships are allowed in. I would say evidence says otherwise, as Romulans were able to completely isolate themselves for a century and later again for about half a century.
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Old September 13 2012, 01:09 AM   #17
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

Dukhat wrote: View Post

2. Picard also seems to imply that it would be a very big deal if the Romulans found out about the Pegasus's cloaking device, and that it could lead to a new conflict between the Federation and the Empire.
One major problem with this possibility is that the Federation has the Klingons as allies, and the Klingons have cloaks. Obviously they're not going to lend them at will (as seen in cases like "The Defector" and "Unification"), but it does provide a rather convenient loophole which the Romulans don't have an easy answer for.

That's not to say Picard's concern was invalid, cause it wasn't. Just saying the alliance is a huge advantage when it comes to certain things.
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Old September 13 2012, 05:49 AM   #18
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

Hando wrote: View Post
Why do you think civilian ships are allowed in. I would say evidence says otherwise, as Romulans were able to completely isolate themselves for a century and later again for about half a century.
Because the Romulans only isolated themselves from the FEDERATION. They apparently spent most of that time playing cloak and dagger games with the Klingons and the Cardassians.

More to the point, Starfleet is and has always been a sort of closed loop that doesn't interact much with the non-Starfleet operators of the galaxy. Part of this is because they primarily "explore strange new worlds" and thus have an inherent tendency to avoid places that have already been explored and colonized; the only times they ever operate near civilization is when something has either gone horribly wrong or is in danger of doing so unless they intervene. Mainly for this reason, civilian space traffic is usually pretty far below Starfleet's radar, and traffic in the neutral zone, doubly so. Starfleet officers have themselves taken advantage of this from time to time to get access to places that would normally be offlimits to them (in "Birthright" Worf actually charters a shuttle to take him to a Romulan prison camp in hopes of finding his father).

Moreover, it's just the political logic of it all. It's said that any violation of the neutral zone would constitute an act of war; that can't POSSIBLY apply to civilians, since Starfleet could in no way be held legally responsible for the actions of civilian captains outside of their chain of command, nor does that appear to be the point of a region of space called the Neutral Zone. Neutral meaning it should theoretically be accessible by anyone, any time, for any reason; the only people who can't go there are Starfleet and the Romulan fleet.
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Old September 13 2012, 01:50 PM   #19
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

Methos wrote: View Post
you're looking for the Treaty of Algeron...

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Algeron

The treaty reinforced and redefined the Romulan Neutral Zone, and made clear that any violations of the Zone without adequate notification, by either side, would be considered an act of war. The treaty also expressly prohibited the development or use of cloaking device technology by the Federation. Then-Captain Pressman attempted to circumvent this clause in 2358 with the test of a phasing cloaking device developed covertly at least in some part by Starfleet Intelligence aboard the USS Pegasus.
As far as i know, there's never been an actual reason why the Romulans demanded The Federation not to use cloaking technology... it's just part of Trek history that's never been explained

M
So the Federation signed a treaty that applied different rules to the Federation than the Romulan or Klingon Empires. This is kind of like the United States agreeing not to use submarines while allowing the Soviets to continue using them during the Cold War. I can't imagine the Federation Representative being well thought of for signing this treaty. Can you imagine how many Starfleet personnel could have lost their lives when their ship came under attack by a cloaked Klingon or Romulan vessel, and those that survived cursing under their breath the signers of that treaty that put them at this disadvantage to begin with?
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Old September 13 2012, 01:56 PM   #20
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

Hando wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Well the Federation has a history of signing dumb treaties. I was always under the impression from the episodes as presented that in exchange for peace, the Federation pledged not to devolop cloaking technology. I could see the Romulans insisting on this as a condition as it would give them an edge in any future encounters.

I'm honestly surprised the Dominion War and/or Shinzon incident didn't kill this off though.
I vote for this. Federation citizens and the Federation in general has adapted an appeasement policy from the get go.
The other side can break treaties as many times as they want, but there is just no response from the Federation.
Kzinti, Romulans, Tholians, Tzinkati are still around, still are enemies although being defeated by the Federation.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
It probably DID if "All Good Things" is any indication. In the time it takes for Beverly to get fed up with Jean Luc's bullshit, divorce him, then get her own command of a medical ship (time enough for B4 to become an oxford scholar and Riker to take command of the Enterprise-E) cloaking devices will be standard issue on Starfleet ships.

Something else to consider: the neutral zone treaty applies to Federation starships, of course... which is to say Starfleet ships. It doesn't seem to apply to civilian ships from either side, which are doubtless subject to all kinds of invasive inspections and harsh tariffs at the neutral zone outposts. The Algeron treaty probably doesn't apply to civilians either, and certain civilian operators could probably get away with operating commercially available cloaking devices for espionage purposes. They wouldn't fool romulan or Federation sensors, of course, but they might be enough to, say, hide a holoship in a lake somewhere or fool the locals of some planet you're scamming by pretending to be the devil incarnate.
I suppose the Treaty of Algeron also contains a clear definition of a Cloaking device, and only this technology is prohibited in the Federation.

Why do you think civilian ships are allowed in. I would say evidence says otherwise, as Romulans were able to completely isolate themselves for a century and later again for about half a century.
I guess the cloaking device offers no tactical advantage since the Federation has managed to survive, this is the equivalent of the US signing a treaty that does not allow it but allows its adversaries to use submarines.
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Old September 13 2012, 04:48 PM   #21
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

Mars wrote: View Post
Methos wrote: View Post
you're looking for the Treaty of Algeron...

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Algeron

The treaty reinforced and redefined the Romulan Neutral Zone, and made clear that any violations of the Zone without adequate notification, by either side, would be considered an act of war. The treaty also expressly prohibited the development or use of cloaking device technology by the Federation. Then-Captain Pressman attempted to circumvent this clause in 2358 with the test of a phasing cloaking device developed covertly at least in some part by Starfleet Intelligence aboard the USS Pegasus.
As far as i know, there's never been an actual reason why the Romulans demanded The Federation not to use cloaking technology... it's just part of Trek history that's never been explained

M
So the Federation signed a treaty that applied different rules to the Federation than the Romulan or Klingon Empires. This is kind of like the United States agreeing not to use submarines while allowing the Soviets to continue using them during the Cold War. I can't imagine the Federation Representative being well thought of for signing this treaty. Can you imagine how many Starfleet personnel could have lost their lives when their ship came under attack by a cloaked Klingon or Romulan vessel, and those that survived cursing under their breath the signers of that treaty that put them at this disadvantage to begin with?
In point of fact, there are real-life examples of situations akin to the Treaty of Algeron.

Look at the USAF's B-1 Bomber. The aircraft was designed for a payload of 24 nuclear tipped cruise missiles. So configured, if the balloon went up during the Cold War the Russians would be screwed like a Mexican hooker considering just ONE AIRCRAFT had the ability to hit 24 targets with nuclear ordinance-and we initially built 100 of them for service during the late 80's.

This troubling fact was not lost on the old Soviet Union, and as such one of the treaty concessions of the last START talks was permanently modifying the B-1 Lancer's frame to deny installation and use of those nuclear cruise missiles. They haven't been flown on a B-1 aircraft in over 20 years , and yet to this day Russian inspectors hop on a jet and fly over to US bases for a treaty-mandated inspection to ensure the blocking partitions are still in place.

Awesome capability though it was , the U.S. Military has somehow found a way to survive without it.


In looking at the TOA, we must remember that a cloaking device isn't a perfect weapon. Its just another technical tool , subject to tactical limitations and drawbacks. As Kirk's engagements in STIII prove, just because you have a cloak doesn't mean the other guy can't hit you first.

To wit, we also have to wonder what use a cloaking device would serve for a Starfleet dedicated to exploration and scientific research. The primary purposes of the Romulan and Klingon imperial fleets is military defense and conquest, and their equipment reflects this mission.

The primary purpose of Starfleet ships is NOT military operations, although in the event of emergency action this is a role that can be adopted. Not every Captain in the fleet ends up solving exotic problems Kirk and Picard regularly deal with, so for 99% of the benign Starfleet a cloaking device has about as much daily relevance as a fallout shelter.
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Old September 14 2012, 09:23 AM   #22
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

We also have to seriously consider the possibility that the treaty banned the use of cloaking devices on both sides. In theory, Romulans would have honored the treaty until TNG "The Neutral Zone", because they went unseen... The Feds in turn would have honored it because they went seen! Of course, both sides would probably be constantly cloaking like mad, and developing new cloaks, but as long as they didn't get caught, it wouldn't matter. And a cloak is all about not being caught in the first place.

That Romulans openly defied the treaty on several occasions after "The Neutral Zone" would not necessarily mean the Feds would be motivated to drop the treaty. It would be purely beneficial for them to keep on pretending that they are the good guys, while the cloaking programs would continue unhindered just as before. Not only would the Feds gain political points for being "trustworthy", but they could demand that the Romulans obey all the other conditions of ToA, even when the Feds magnanimously turn a blind eye to all the cloaking going on.

The aircraft was designed for a payload of 24 nuclear tipped cruise missiles.
To nitpick, it was designed for three times eight cruise missiles of a very specific type, the AGM-86A (or, alternately, the somewhat smaller SRAM). The reason it was later unable to carry those was not because the Soviets forbade it, but because the AGM-86A was replaced by larger weapons that no longer fit inside in the 3x8 packages. And this in turn was because the B-1 had been briefly cancelled because it was felt it could not survive Soviet air defenses and thus was useless - and when it was reactivated with some modifications, the larger and better cruise missiles were already standard, the missile designers having seen no continuing reason to keep the size down.

The modified bomber could still carry a few of them, because two of the shorter weapons holds could be combined into a single longer one. So, a warload one-third that of the original design was still available. (Or then a full load of freefall nukes, or of SRAMs, but nobody wanted to risk the expensive bombers on the suicidal missions of deploying those types of weapons.)

The thing that really had the Soviets worried was not B-1, but the weapon it was going to deploy - the AGM-86B, or later the Tomahawk, and later still their even more modern cruise missile successors (some of which do fit inside a B-1 again). But those weapons could be carried in far more fearsome gaggles on the old B-52 bombers, and the B-1 with its smaller warload offered no additional threat, as it was no longer trusted with the ability to penetrate deeper into Soviet airspace.

Federation citizens and the Federation in general has adapted an appeasement policy from the get go.
Generally, if the opponent is truly interested in fighting, the only two policies available are appeasement (i.e. stop attacking at some point) and genocide (i.e. only stop when the opponent stops, that is, when there no longer is an opponent). And just because WWII made a policy of genocide (or "total victory" or whatever) the popular one doesn't mean that it would be favored in the Trek context. After all, victors in a World War can stop triumphant when they have subdued the entire planet. The UFP could only stop triumphant at subduing the entire galaxy! All other stops mean appeasement; conversely, to stop appeasing means to proceed with the genocide again.

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Old September 14 2012, 03:42 PM   #23
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

A central point is that a treaty only has to make sense to those signing it AT THE TIME, whereas every onscreen reference has been in later years when it may be widely assumed to have been a bad mistake.
Clearly the Federation negotiators got something in return for the ban on cloaks that they felt was worth the price (they may have assumed anyway that Starfleet will always find a way to detect a cloak, an assumption supported by the speed with Data&Laforge or O'Brien&co always do just that, so they were giving away a useless technology).
It could be that it became obvious they were wrong within a very few years, and that the Cloaking Clauses in the treaty of Algeron are taught as Example Number One of How Not To Do It at the Federation Diplomatic Academy, but the UFP is stuck with them, until a) the Romulans agree to renegotiate those clauses, or b) The UFP decides to unilaterally abrogate the entire treaty, and lose all the benefits it presumably gets from other clauses.
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Old September 14 2012, 03:44 PM   #24
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

more than likely, in return for giving up research on cloaking technology, the Federation got the Romulans to agree to shifting the neutral zone that gave the Federation some systems on the edge, so these systems were inside Federation space...

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Old September 14 2012, 05:15 PM   #25
Mars
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

Silversmok3 wrote: View Post
Mars wrote: View Post
Methos wrote: View Post
you're looking for the Treaty of Algeron...

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Algeron



As far as i know, there's never been an actual reason why the Romulans demanded The Federation not to use cloaking technology... it's just part of Trek history that's never been explained

M
So the Federation signed a treaty that applied different rules to the Federation than the Romulan or Klingon Empires. This is kind of like the United States agreeing not to use submarines while allowing the Soviets to continue using them during the Cold War. I can't imagine the Federation Representative being well thought of for signing this treaty. Can you imagine how many Starfleet personnel could have lost their lives when their ship came under attack by a cloaked Klingon or Romulan vessel, and those that survived cursing under their breath the signers of that treaty that put them at this disadvantage to begin with?
In point of fact, there are real-life examples of situations akin to the Treaty of Algeron.

Look at the USAF's B-1 Bomber. The aircraft was designed for a payload of 24 nuclear tipped cruise missiles. So configured, if the balloon went up during the Cold War the Russians would be screwed like a Mexican hooker considering just ONE AIRCRAFT had the ability to hit 24 targets with nuclear ordinance-and we initially built 100 of them for service during the late 80's.

This troubling fact was not lost on the old Soviet Union, and as such one of the treaty concessions of the last START talks was permanently modifying the B-1 Lancer's frame to deny installation and use of those nuclear cruise missiles. They haven't been flown on a B-1 aircraft in over 20 years , and yet to this day Russian inspectors hop on a jet and fly over to US bases for a treaty-mandated inspection to ensure the blocking partitions are still in place.

Awesome capability though it was , the U.S. Military has somehow found a way to survive without it.


In looking at the TOA, we must remember that a cloaking device isn't a perfect weapon. Its just another technical tool , subject to tactical limitations and drawbacks. As Kirk's engagements in STIII prove, just because you have a cloak doesn't mean the other guy can't hit you first.

To wit, we also have to wonder what use a cloaking device would serve for a Starfleet dedicated to exploration and scientific research. The primary purposes of the Romulan and Klingon imperial fleets is military defense and conquest, and their equipment reflects this mission.

The primary purpose of Starfleet ships is NOT military operations, although in the event of emergency action this is a role that can be adopted. Not every Captain in the fleet ends up solving exotic problems Kirk and Picard regularly deal with, so for 99% of the benign Starfleet a cloaking device has about as much daily relevance as a fallout shelter.
Though it proved useful to have a Klingon Cloaking Device in Star Trek IV, the cloak in this case helped to preserve the "Temporal Prime Directive".
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Old September 17 2012, 11:19 AM   #26
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

Mars wrote: View Post
So the Federation signed a treaty that applied different rules to the Federation than the Romulan or Klingon Empires. This is kind of like the United States agreeing not to use submarines while allowing the Soviets to continue using them during the Cold War.
Germany signed a treaty after World War I "agreeing" to give up submarines.
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Old September 17 2012, 10:56 PM   #27
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

True, but that was a term imposed on them based on how the German Navy behaved in WWI. They were required to give up their air force as well. Under some circumstances, such conditions wouldn't have necessarily been harsh or impossible. But the Treaty of Versailles has a lot of problems when it comes to the victors' terms against Germany (IMO anyway ).
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Old September 18 2012, 04:50 PM   #28
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

Unicron wrote: View Post
True, but that was a term imposed on them based on how the German Navy behaved in WWI. They were required to give up their air force as well. Under some circumstances, such conditions wouldn't have necessarily been harsh or impossible. But the Treaty of Versailles has a lot of problems when it comes to the victors' terms against Germany (IMO anyway ).
I agree with everything you say, especially the part about the problems with the treaty. I was pointing out the fact to highlight that there is a historical precedent for banning certain technologies from certain countries.

As a bonus, my point also lends evidence to a theory earlier in the thread. We don't know what happened in the war, we don't even know if Earth was on the winning side.
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Old September 19 2012, 12:05 AM   #29
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

Fair enough. I agree with you on that, as it could have been that something happened with how Starfleet used technology in the incident which reflected badly on them, and they chose to accept the limitation in the treaty as a way of saving political face. It could still have been a fairly minor point at the time the treaty was written.
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Old September 19 2012, 08:18 AM   #30
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Re: Federation Law of restricting cloaking device

Mage wrote: View Post
I can highly recommend reading Serpents Amongst The Ruins, the novel that explains what happened that lead to the treaty of Algeron and why the Romulans closed their borders for about 50 years. Although not official canon, it is a very good read non the less, and also redefines the character of John Harriman, captain of the Enterprise B.
That was one of my favorite Lost Era books. The explanation in it is as good as any since there will never be an official one more than likely.
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