RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,555
Posts: 5,401,703
Members: 24,861
Currently online: 581
Newest member: bunty2

TrekToday headlines

Mystery Mini Vinyl Figure Display Box
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

The Red Shirt Diaries Episode Five
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

Shatner In Trek 3? Well Maybe
By: T'Bonz on Sep 28

Retro Review: Shadows and Symbols
By: Michelle on Sep 27

Meyer: Revitalizing Star Trek
By: T'Bonz on Sep 26

Trek Costumes To Be Auctioned
By: T'Bonz on Sep 25

Hulu Snaps up Abrams-Produced Drama
By: T'Bonz on Sep 25

Abrams To Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Sep 24

Trek 3 Casting Rumor Reactions
By: T'Bonz on Sep 24

Trek Comics Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 13 2012, 12:12 PM   #16
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Why the Xindi never appear in TOS / TNG / DS9 / VOY

NrobbieC wrote: View Post
Andorians were never seen TNG, neither were Orions iirc so it's not much of a stretch to say they were there just never seen.
I think we saw an Andorian twice in TNG

"The Offspring" Hologram only
"Captain's Holiday"
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2012, 12:21 PM   #17
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Why the Xindi never appear in TOS / TNG / DS9 / VOY

The Xindi might be everywhere, really. Their culture consisted of multiple species, was governed in a somewhat repressive manner, and (largely for the latter reason) managed to remain ignorant of the existence of at least one further, now extinct species. Several other "member species" might have been discovered later on, accounting for the Xindi Starbase of "The Battle" and for the Feline Xindi of "Slaver Weapon" etc.

On the other hand, whatever killed the Avian Xindi might have been built in to the entire spectrum of species originating from their birthworld - or related to the Sphere Builder designs on the culture. Perhaps the species died off one by one soon after the Delphic Expanse was dissipated?

Or perhaps whatever need or will or sentiment connected the different species originally was removed by Archer's antics, and the species still exist, but none of them call themselves Xindi any more. Any of the named but not shown species of TOS, TNG or DS9 could have formerly been part of the Xindi culture, but would now go by a different name.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2012, 01:07 PM   #18
F. King Daniel
Admiral
 
F. King Daniel's Avatar
 
Location: King Daniel Into Darkness
Re: Why the Xindi never appear in TOS / TNG / DS9 / VOY

Deimos Anomaly wrote: View Post
(According to Daniels they eventually joined the UFP.)

Obviously the real life reason is that Enterprise was made after those other series.

Other than that though I wondered if anything had ever been put in canon (or even quasi-canon, like a producer or writer or one of the ST bigwigs making a statement in an interview or what have you) by way of explaining why they are never seen "again".
The Xindi get occasional mention in the 24th century post-series novels. There was a Suliban member of the DTI in Watching the Clock.

As for why they weren't ever seen on-screen, it's a BIG galaxy. We never saw the Remans until Nemesis, although they were supposedly part of the Dominion War. We never see many of the cool background aliens from The Motion Picture, The Voyage Home or JJ's Star Trek in any of the chronologically later series' or movies either.

Back to the novels for a second, Spock's World mentions that the Federation has had contact with 800+ alien races. They can't all be on screen all the time!
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
F. King Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2012, 01:10 PM   #19
Methos
First Officer: USS Aventine
 
Methos's Avatar
 
Location: Hiding under Gaila's bed...
View Methos's Twitter Profile Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Methos Send a message via Yahoo to Methos
Re: Why the Xindi never appear in TOS / TNG / DS9 / VOY

i find that number to be a bit iffy honestly...

Spock's World is set just after the end of the original series... so 800+ races just around the Alpha Quadrant... if that were true then space would be packed and like a zoo lol

M
__________________
In Russia, a 122 year old man has passed away, he credited his long life to abtaining from alcohol, tobacco and women. His last words were "I've made a huge mistake."
Methos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2012, 01:12 PM   #20
F. King Daniel
Admiral
 
F. King Daniel's Avatar
 
Location: King Daniel Into Darkness
Re: Why the Xindi never appear in TOS / TNG / DS9 / VOY

Timo wrote: View Post
The Xindi might be everywhere, really. Their culture consisted of multiple species, was governed in a somewhat repressive manner, and (largely for the latter reason) managed to remain ignorant of the existence of at least one further, now extinct species. Several other "member species" might have been discovered later on, accounting for the Xindi Starbase of "The Battle" and for the Feline Xindi of "Slaver Weapon" etc.
Kzinti. A totally unrelated species created by Larry Niven for his Known Space universe. Not Xindi. At all.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
F. King Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2012, 01:15 PM   #21
F. King Daniel
Admiral
 
F. King Daniel's Avatar
 
Location: King Daniel Into Darkness
Re: Why the Xindi never appear in TOS / TNG / DS9 / VOY

Methos wrote: View Post
i find that number to be a bit iffy honestly...

Spock's World is set just after the end of the original series... so 800+ races just around the Alpha Quadrant... if that were true then space would be packed and like a zoo lol

M
I used to think it was too much, too - until I read that current real-life estimates put an insane ten billion Earth-like planets in our galaxy.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...illion-earths/
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
F. King Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2012, 01:24 PM   #22
billcosby
Commodore
 
billcosby's Avatar
 
Location: billcosby
Re: Why the Xindi never appear in TOS / TNG / DS9 / VOY

Xindi Crawford.
__________________
My 1st Edition TrekCCG virtual expansion: http://billcosbytrekccg.blogspot.com/

billcosby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2012, 01:27 PM   #23
Methos
First Officer: USS Aventine
 
Methos's Avatar
 
Location: Hiding under Gaila's bed...
View Methos's Twitter Profile Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Methos Send a message via Yahoo to Methos
Re: Why the Xindi never appear in TOS / TNG / DS9 / VOY

still seems off...

I mean at the end of TOS, they'd barely mapped a 1/4 of the alpha quadrant... given the Enterprise's top speed back then, they would have mapped a tiny fraction of the alpha quadrant, I seriously doubt 800+ individual species existed around their tiny area of exploration...

M
__________________
In Russia, a 122 year old man has passed away, he credited his long life to abtaining from alcohol, tobacco and women. His last words were "I've made a huge mistake."
Methos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2012, 01:35 PM   #24
yenny
Captain
 
Re: Why the Xindi never appear in TOS / TNG / DS9 / VOY

They had never had said when the Xindi join the Federation. They only said that they had only join the Federation. Most likely they join the Federation either in the late 24th century or in the 25th century.
yenny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2012, 01:53 PM   #25
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Why the Xindi never appear in TOS / TNG / DS9 / VOY

I mean at the end of TOS, they'd barely mapped a 1/4 of the alpha quadrant...
Where does this datapoint come from? We get the figures 11% and 19% at the start of TNG, which would be from 1/2 of Alpha (or a comparable volume) to 2/3 of it.

given the Enterprise's top speed back then, they would have mapped a tiny fraction of the alpha quadrant
We know the ship could do at least a couple of thousand lightyears per season, from the sum total of explicit distance references in episodes like "Squire of Gothos". A dozen ships like that would quickly cover much of Alpha, even if only in the sense of making UFP-explored space look like a really tiny hedgehog with really long spikes. The thing is, though, those other cultures would also be exploring, and it would be the sum total of these explorations that would bring together 800 cultures in an eyeblink.

I seriously doubt 800+ individual species existed around their tiny area of exploration...
I rather suspect the number would be much higher, as the current estimates for life-supporting planets are based on the idea that such planets developed naturally. In Trek, cultures would have been terraforming them for millions or billions of years already. And it's rather uncommon to find such a world without a native or visiting humanoid culture to it...

Kzinti. A totally unrelated species created by Larry Niven for his Known Space universe. Not Xindi. At all.
...Although associating the cats with the Xindi culture is just about the only way we could accept "them" as having had four wars with mankind two centuries before TAS. After all, ENT makes it pretty clear that only the Xindi had had anything approaching a "war" with Earth by that time. Unless we assume they were the mercenaries of the Romulans in that war, and recognized as such (so humans would know they don't know what the actual Romulans look like)...

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2012, 02:09 PM   #26
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Why the Xindi never appear in TOS / TNG / DS9 / VOY

Methos wrote: View Post
still seems off...

I mean at the end of TOS, they'd barely mapped a 1/4 of the alpha quadrant... given the Enterprise's top speed back then, they would have mapped a tiny fraction of the alpha quadrant, I seriously doubt 800+ individual species existed around their tiny area of exploration...

M
I suspect the Federation has maps for at leasta 1/4 of the Galaxy. After all in the DSN pilot, the Runabout was able to identify the star Idran based on data from the Quadros 1 probe. So that system could be considered to be mapped.

Though I take it you mean explored with manned starships, but if we take the 800 figure from the novel, set circa 2369. That would be around 200 years of Human space exploration. Once you start to factor in increasing speeds of ships, greater numbers of ships a large volume of space could have been explored. Now of course some of those 800+ could have been contacted prior to the development of not contact directive. And some contacted races might not fall within the region of space claimed by the UFP.

So it is plausbale
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2012, 02:14 PM   #27
Methos
First Officer: USS Aventine
 
Methos's Avatar
 
Location: Hiding under Gaila's bed...
View Methos's Twitter Profile Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Methos Send a message via Yahoo to Methos
Re: Why the Xindi never appear in TOS / TNG / DS9 / VOY

Timo wrote: View Post
I mean at the end of TOS, they'd barely mapped a 1/4 of the alpha quadrant...
Where does this datapoint come from? We get the figures 11% and 19% at the start of TNG, which would be from 1/2 of Alpha (or a comparable volume) to 2/3 of it.

given the Enterprise's top speed back then, they would have mapped a tiny fraction of the alpha quadrant
We know the ship could do at least a couple of thousand lightyears per season, from the sum total of explicit distance references in episodes like "Squire of Gothos". A dozen ships like that would quickly cover much of Alpha, even if only in the sense of making UFP-explored space look like a really tiny hedgehog with really long spikes. The thing is, though, those other cultures would also be exploring, and it would be the sum total of these explorations that would bring together 800 cultures in an eyeblink.

Timo Saloniemi
The stellar disk of the Milky Way Galaxy is approximately 100,000 light-years in diameter, and is, on average, about 1,000 ly thick.

So, if we do that into quarters for the quadrants, we have 25,000 light years across and 25,000 light years in length, for the alpha quadrant, and still 1,000 light years thick... that gives a standard volume of 625,000,000,000 light years cubed just for the Alpha Quadrant... basic math there.

So given the Enterprise (Constitution class), had a maximum speed of Warp 8, and a maximum safe speed of Warp 6 (As explained in TOS: That Which Survives), we can avarage that the Enterprise did a comfortable speed of 216c

So again, back to maths...

Warp 6 = 216c...

So it would take about a week to reach Alpha Centauri (4.3 light years from earth)

Just to put that into context for you... it would take just over 115 years to fly from one side of the alpha quadrant to the other at Warp 6... Hardly fitting within the '5 year mission' perameters...

M
__________________
In Russia, a 122 year old man has passed away, he credited his long life to abtaining from alcohol, tobacco and women. His last words were "I've made a huge mistake."
Methos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2012, 02:20 PM   #28
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Why the Xindi never appear in TOS / TNG / DS9 / VOY

So given the Enterprise (Constitution class), had a maximum speed of Warp 8, and a maximum safe speed of Warp 6 (As explained in TOS: That Which Survives), we can avarage that the Enterprise did a comfortable speed of 216c
Patently false, as our only datapoints into how fast the TOS warp factors are indicate speeds in the range of hundreds of lightyears in a DAY, not in a year.

We really can forget all about that nonsense and start picking-and-choosing between actual datapoints, which may not be in complete agreement with each other but certainly debunk the idea that a nearby star could only be reached in a week. After all, Kirk in TOS hopped from star to star in a matter of days at the very most, without indication that those would be neighboring stars.

Those speeds would allow for the galactic hedgehog to extend its spikes across a thousand neighboring cultures easily enough in the couple of centuries the UFP has existed before Spock's World. And that only by using the frontline starships; lesser probeships could also establish contact, or at least make others curious about the UFP and cause them to make contact.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2012, 02:26 PM   #29
Methos
First Officer: USS Aventine
 
Methos's Avatar
 
Location: Hiding under Gaila's bed...
View Methos's Twitter Profile Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Methos Send a message via Yahoo to Methos
Re: Why the Xindi never appear in TOS / TNG / DS9 / VOY

I used the information specificallhy available on Tech Specs for the Constituion class around the internet...

Constitution Class Speed:

Warp 6 (maximum safe speed)
Warp 8 (maximum speed)
Warp 9 (attainable at extreme risk)

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Constitution_class

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(NCC-1701)

http://www.ufstarfleet.org/wiki/inde...Class_Starship

If you can site sources where the Constitution class ships regularly travelled faster than any starship in TNG, DS9 or Voy, please do...

M
__________________
In Russia, a 122 year old man has passed away, he credited his long life to abtaining from alcohol, tobacco and women. His last words were "I've made a huge mistake."
Methos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2012, 02:37 PM   #30
F. King Daniel
Admiral
 
F. King Daniel's Avatar
 
Location: King Daniel Into Darkness
Re: Why the Xindi never appear in TOS / TNG / DS9 / VOY

Speed and distance in Trek fluctuates wildly. Look at the video in my sig, at 8:00. Warp 8.4 in TOS would have managed Voyager's "75 years at warp 9.975" in a month!
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
F. King Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:58 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.