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Old September 13 2012, 12:25 AM   #61
Captain Atkin
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

Christopher wrote: View Post
Jimmy Olsen.
Congratulations. You just named a character played by an actor who appeared in 4 SUPERMAN films
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Old September 13 2012, 12:37 AM   #62
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

Captain Atkin wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
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The Dark Knight Rises is a film with strong performances from all of the male and female characters, that encourages repeat viewings. All of the characters are strong and well written. The Amazing Spider-Man also had a strong male/female dynamic. For the life of me, I cannot think of a single female supehero movie where this is the case. Supergirl? Halle Berry's Catwoman? Tomb Raider? Electra? Men are often dumbed down in these films. If that isn't sexism, I don't know what is.
Supergirl tanked for all sorts of reasons that had nothing to do with male/female dynamic. Electra failed for all sorts of reasons, too. I can't speak about the others in your list because I haven't seen them, however cursory research indicates that while a critical failure, Lara Croft: Tomb Raider was a box office success. I don't believe you've demonstrated that lack of male/female dynamic was a problem with those films.
Off the top of your head, without cheating, try to name one male character from any of those films I listed.
I know that Peter O'Toole was in Supergirl, which isn't hard to remember at all, since he is a world-famous actor with multiple Oscar nominations. Do I remember the name of his character without cheating? No.

But so what? It's neither here nor there. As I've already said, in movies with so many problems to begin with, what is your basis for picking on this one thing?

Furthermore, by your own admission, Lara Croft: Tomb Raider lacked your special element, yet it was actually a success. You've actually provided evidence against your own claim that this element you're picking on is a determining factor for success.
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Old September 13 2012, 12:42 AM   #63
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

Brainiac says this discussion is irrelevant.
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Old September 13 2012, 12:45 AM   #64
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

I remember the male leads playing pretty significant roles in Elektra and Catwoman. I certainly remember Will Yun Lee and Cary Hiroyuki-Tagawa as the main antagonists in Elektra, and I remember Benjamin Bratt as the male lead/love interest in Catwoman. I definitely remember Elektra's love interest playing a significant role in the film, though I don't remember the actor's name. I don't remember any of their character names, no, but then, I don't remember most of the female character names from those films either, beyond those of their respective title characters.

Oh, wait, yes, I remember Terence Stamp as Elektra's mentor Stick. Kneel before Stick!

So I don't think the "male/female dynamic" suggestion above holds up.
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Old September 13 2012, 12:49 AM   #65
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

I know that Peter O'Toole was in Supergirl, which isn't hard to remember at all, since he is a world-famous actor with multiple Oscar nominations. Do I remember the name of his character without cheating? No.

But so what? It's neither here nor there. As I've already said, in movies with so many problems to begin with, what is your basis for picking on this one thing?

Furthermore, by your own admission, Lara Croft: Tomb Raider lacked your special element, yet it was actually a success. You've actually provided evidence against your own claim that this element you're picking on is a determining factor for success.
My own admission? I never said Laura Croft wasn't a super hero

I think Laura Croft fits in comfortably in the "grey area" that Catwoman fits in. Laura is a hero when she wants to be, and often does heroic deeds, even though she also has her own interests at heart.

Laura Croft was a financial success, and although she is a video game character, I would argue that she is a modern day superhero. Same goes with Alice from Resident Evil. Laura Croft has also appeared in plenty of comics over the years. The 2nd Tomb Raider didn't do as well financially, and we never saw a third.
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Old September 13 2012, 12:59 AM   #66
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

Captain Atkin wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

I know that Peter O'Toole was in Supergirl, which isn't hard to remember at all, since he is a world-famous actor with multiple Oscar nominations. Do I remember the name of his character without cheating? No.

But so what? It's neither here nor there. As I've already said, in movies with so many problems to begin with, what is your basis for picking on this one thing?

Furthermore, by your own admission, Lara Croft: Tomb Raider lacked your special element, yet it was actually a success. You've actually provided evidence against your own claim that this element you're picking on is a determining factor for success.
My own admission? I never said Laura Croft wasn't a super hero

I think Laura Croft fits in comfortably in the "grey area" that Catwoman fits in. Laura is a hero when she wants to be, and often does heroic deeds, even though she also has her own interests at heart.

Laura Croft was a financial success, and although she is a video game character, I would argue that she is a modern day superhero. Same goes with Alice from Resident Evil. Laura Croft has also appeared in plenty of comics over the years. The 2nd Tomb Raider didn't do as well financially, and we never saw a third.
The issue I was referring to was whether Lara Croft was successful. You inappropriately lumped it in with failures.

And yeah, this sidebar is irrelevant and pointless, so I'm done with it.
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Old September 13 2012, 01:07 AM   #67
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

Will Supergirl randomly start attending an all girls school and fall in love with a gardener again in this movie?
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Old September 13 2012, 01:09 AM   #68
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

Christopher wrote: View Post
I remember the male leads playing pretty significant roles in Elektra and Catwoman. I certainly remember Will Yun Lee and Cary Hiroyuki-Tagawa as the main antagonists in Elektra, and I remember Benjamin Bratt as the male lead/love interest in Catwoman. I definitely remember Elektra's love interest playing a significant role in the film, though I don't remember the actor's name. I don't remember any of their character names, no, but then, I don't remember most of the female character names from those films either, beyond those of their respective title characters.

Oh, wait, yes, I remember Terence Stamp as Elektra's mentor Stick. Kneel before Stick!

So I don't think the "male/female dynamic" suggestion above holds up.
Well, it holds up pretty well for me, but opinions will vary on this. I have no difficulty remembering the names of the female characters from films like Batman, Spiderman and Superman. If you can't remember the names of the male characters from the female led movies (beyond characters like Jimmy Olsen who appeared first in male-led superhero films), then I think that does say something. I remember that Benjamin Bratt appeared in Catwoman, but I would never be able to remember his name. Stick? I like Terrance, but that is a pretty awful name. I never would have remembered that one, although I vaguely remember the actor being in the film. His performance in that film was no General Zod, to be sure.

Look, I want a great female lead Superhero movie as much as the next person. I'm even producing a "She-Ra" fan film right now. But so far, we haven't seen a successful female superhero movie of a character who originated in comics. Will it happen? Probably. The man to direct Wonder-Woman was Joss Whedon, and the studio blew it on that one by letting him go (I believe he moved on to something called The Avengers). If I had to place bets, I would say the next successful female "superhero" film will be a movie based on Black Widow, even though she doesn't have any super powers.
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Old September 13 2012, 01:16 AM   #69
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Captain Atkin wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

I know that Peter O'Toole was in Supergirl, which isn't hard to remember at all, since he is a world-famous actor with multiple Oscar nominations. Do I remember the name of his character without cheating? No.

But so what? It's neither here nor there. As I've already said, in movies with so many problems to begin with, what is your basis for picking on this one thing?

Furthermore, by your own admission, Lara Croft: Tomb Raider lacked your special element, yet it was actually a success. You've actually provided evidence against your own claim that this element you're picking on is a determining factor for success.
My own admission? I never said Laura Croft wasn't a super hero

I think Laura Croft fits in comfortably in the "grey area" that Catwoman fits in. Laura is a hero when she wants to be, and often does heroic deeds, even though she also has her own interests at heart.

Laura Croft was a financial success, and although she is a video game character, I would argue that she is a modern day superhero. Same goes with Alice from Resident Evil. Laura Croft has also appeared in plenty of comics over the years. The 2nd Tomb Raider didn't do as well financially, and we never saw a third.
The issue I was referring to was whether Lara Croft was successful. You inappropriately lumped it in with failures.

And yeah, this sidebar is irrelevant and pointless, so I'm done with it.
I never once said that Tomb Raider was a failure. Go back and read what I said. I listed her with the other super-heroine films (which just happened to be failures) because I was making a point that there was no memorable male characters in any of those super-heroine films. I wasn't basing my point on financial success when I made that statement, although I can see how you may have interpreted it that way based on my previous posts. Point being, none of the "super-heroine" films have had memorable male characters. They have been weak and in need of protection (like Jimmy Olsen - a Superman character), or forgettable (like the father in Elecktra).
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Old September 13 2012, 01:18 AM   #70
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

I'm done with the sidebar.
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Old September 13 2012, 01:21 AM   #71
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I'm done with the sidebar.
Good for you. I'm done too.
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Old September 13 2012, 01:30 AM   #72
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

Captain Atkin wrote: View Post
Well, it holds up pretty well for me, but opinions will vary on this. I have no difficulty remembering the names of the female characters from films like Batman, Spiderman and Superman. If you can't remember the names of the male characters from the female led movies (beyond characters like Jimmy Olsen who appeared first in male-led superhero films), then I think that does say something.
All it says it that you're cherry-picking my words to fit your preconceptions. Remember, I specifically said that I couldn't remember most of the character names in those films, male or female. I've only seen Elektra maybe 2-3 times, the last time being several years ago, and I've never seen Catwoman all the way through, though I think I've caught most or all of it in the course of two separate viewings on TV. And I haven't seen Supergirl in decades.

So you're absolutely wrong about what my comments show. They only show that I haven't seen the movies in question very often or very recently, and that I have a much worse memory than I wish I did. They absolutely do not show a differential in the memorability of male vs. female characters in those films. I may not remember the names of most of the characters of either sex, but I definitely remember their presence and roles in the story about equally.


Stick? I like Terrance, but that is a pretty awful name. I never would have remembered that one, although I vaguely remember the actor being in the film.
Stick is a well-established comics character, created by Frank Miller in 1981. He was sensei to both Daredevil and Elektra in the comics, though only to Elektra in the movies.
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Old September 13 2012, 01:38 AM   #73
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

Christopher wrote: View Post
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Well, it holds up pretty well for me, but opinions will vary on this. I have no difficulty remembering the names of the female characters from films like Batman, Spiderman and Superman. If you can't remember the names of the male characters from the female led movies (beyond characters like Jimmy Olsen who appeared first in male-led superhero films), then I think that does say something.
All it says it that you're cherry-picking my words to fit your preconceptions. Remember, I specifically said that I couldn't remember most of the character names in those films, male or female. I've only seen Elektra maybe 2-3 times, the last time being several years ago, and I've never seen Catwoman all the way through, though I think I've caught most or all of it in the course of two separate viewings on TV. And I haven't seen Supergirl in decades.

So you're absolutely wrong about what my comments show. They only show that I haven't seen the movies in question very often or very recently, and that I have a much worse memory than I wish I did. They absolutely do not show a differential in the memorability of male vs. female characters in those films. I may not remember the names of most of the characters of either sex, but I definitely remember their presence and roles in the story about equally.
I'm not cherry-picking from what you said. Just pointing out the fact that male characters are not that memorable in these films. Of course, I could just be going senile with old age... lol... but for the life of me I can't remember a single name of any male character in any of those films, beyond Jimmy Olsen. I also can't think of any male character that I actually liked in any of the super-heroine films, but that is probably due to forgettable acting. It may sound like a generalization, but male characters tend to not be very well written in these super-heroine films.
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Old September 13 2012, 01:50 AM   #74
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

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I'm not cherry-picking from what you said. Just pointing out the fact that male characters are not that memorable in these films.
You just did it again! I've said over and over again that the male characters were no more or less memorable to me that the female ones! But you're completely ignoring the part that you don't want to hear and only acknowledging the part that supposedly confirms your preconceptions. That is the very definition of cherry-picking!


Of course, I could just be going senile with old age... lol... but for the life of me I can't remember a single name of any male character in any of those films, beyond Jimmy Olsen.
See, the very way you're defining the issue forces your desired conclusion. The question that matters is, can you remember the names of any of the supporting female characters either? It is absolutely meaningless to say you can't remember the men's names unless you can show that the female characters are more memorable.
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Old September 13 2012, 02:09 AM   #75
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

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I think its going to take a female superhero who is completely a standalone character to be a success. Both Supergirl and Electra are spinoff of male characters. I am not saying a good spinoff or supporting female in a lead role can not be well made. But to have big impact and be embraced.

All of the non-superhero female leads listed are not cousins or girlfriends of other more well known characters.

The problem is, there aren't that many female superheroes who aren't either spinoffs of male superheroes or members of teams. Wonder Woman is the main one who comes to mind. The others are generally not very well-known. Amethyst? Dazzler? Hellcat?

Still, I think it's oversimplistic to say that spinoff characters can never succeed. Again, we simply don't have a large enough sample set to draw any reliable conclusions about cause and effect. I mean, sure, the Halle Berry Catwoman movie bombed, but that was because it was an incredibly bad movie. I bet an Anne Hathaway Catwoman movie, spinning off the version of Selina from The Dark Knight Rises, would do tons better. Catwoman is a character who's largely transcended her spinoff origins to become one of DC's major solo heroines, despite technically being part of the extended Batman family. She-Hulk is a popular character who's become very distinct from her male counterpart, having her own adventures in their own separate style and being a major standalone character despite her origins. You could say much the same about Carol Danvers, who was originally a distaff knockoff of Captain Marvel, but now is Captain Marvel.

EDIT: Okay, I'm trying to compile of list of movies about solo female comic-book heroes. What I can come up with are:

Barbarella
Barb Wire
Catwoman
Elektra
Red Sonja
Sheena
Supergirl
Tank Girl


There's also Josie and the Pussycats, but I'm not sure if they count as action heroes.

Now, all of those movies were critical or box-office failures, as far as I'm aware, but at least half of them were characters that weren't spinoffs of male protagonists. So I don't think that holds up as a determining factor.

And it is a pretty small sample size -- eight or at most nine movies in the past 45 years. Now, there have been literally tens of thousands of movies made in that span of time, and I think it's safe to say that a sizeable majority have been mediocre to poor, since bad movies always outnumber good. So if you pick any eight movies at random out of that set of tens of thousands or more, there's a very good chance that you'll pick eight failures. Which is why I don't think the sample size is large enough to conclude that the gender of the heroines, or their relationship to male heroes, or any particular thing is a causative factor. Statistically speaking, there's no pattern that's provably distinct from random chance. Except the pattern that disproportionately few female-led comic-book movies are being made in the first place.
I think Xena might also be added to that list, and Jamie Sommers the Bionic Woman, technically, she is a superhero too, being able to run 60 miles per hour is still super human if not as fast as the Flash.

As for the Supergirl movie, the one complaint I have is Supergirl spent too much time in the Phantom Zone, where she couldn't use her superpowers. I mean if your going to have a superhero movie those powers should be tested, not negated. I mean they didn't toss Superman into the Phantom Zone, the closest he got was Superman II where he voluntarily gave up his powers so he could marry Lois Lane, so he went and got them back when the three villains from Krypton showed up, it wasn't that hard for Clark to get his powers back.
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