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Old September 12 2012, 06:36 PM   #46
Mars
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

Captain Atkin wrote: View Post
The real problem, for me, with a lot of these female superhero movies, is that they don't have likeable male characters in them. If you want to attract men, you need male characters in these kind of films that they can identify with. Often, men in these films (villains, boyfriends, etc...) are kind of wimpy. The Dark Knight Rises and the Amazing Spider-Man both had very likeable and strong female characters (Catwoman and Gwen Stacy). Female superhero movies need to find that same kind of balance, but in reverse, so that male audiences can identify with the male characters.
Let me suggest Hercules for Supergirl. One could make a likable character out of Hercules after all, they made a television series based on him. In DC Hercules comes from the same background as Wonder Woman thus pairing up Superman to Wonder Woman would be the equivalent to pairing Hercules to Supergirl. Hercules could hold his own in a fight, thus Supergirl would not always be rescuing him all the time. That's one suggestion. Another possibility might be a relative of Lex Luthor, if Lex had a rebellious son for example who doesn't always agree with his dad, but has some of his abilities to build gadgets for example, he might make an interesting partner for Supergirl.
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Old September 12 2012, 07:28 PM   #47
the G-man
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
Yet Perez's tenure, which was the definite run on the book for around twenty years didn't sell all that well.
My recollection, at least when Perez was writing and drawing the book, was that it was a top seller.
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Old September 12 2012, 08:40 PM   #48
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

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^Speak for yourself. I don't need a character to be the same gender, race, or whatever as myself in order to identify with them.
I never said that I could not relate to characters like Supergirl or Wonder-Woman. What I was stating is that most men want to see male characters in films that they can also relate too as well. That doesn't mean that men can't relate to the female heroes in the films, and I don't know where you got that from in my post.

I love Supergirl, but if you look at the original film, there was no likeable male characters in the film, save for Peter O'Toole's fatherly figure. Studios make superhero movies to attract a wide audience, so that they can make profit. If you alienate a demographic of people by not featuring them, or having characters they can't relate too, then you loose potential revenue. I wasn't suggesting that males couldn't relate to characters like Supergirl; it was that these films often portray males in a weak/negative light. The fact is, many people do need characters that they can relate too, and that is why female superhero movies tend to not do as well as male superhero films at the box office.

Last edited by Captain Atkin; September 12 2012 at 09:03 PM.
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Old September 12 2012, 08:45 PM   #49
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

the G-man wrote: View Post
Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
Yet Perez's tenure, which was the definite run on the book for around twenty years didn't sell all that well.
My recollection, at least when Perez was writing and drawing the book, was that it was a top seller.
I always thought it was too. My assumption would be that sales fell after Perez stopped actually penciling the book.
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Old September 12 2012, 08:53 PM   #50
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

Captain Atkin wrote: View Post
The fact is, many people do need characters that they can relate too, and that is why female superhero movies tend to not do as well as male superhero films at the box office.
And that's what's wrong with the world -- the inability of so many people to relate to those who are not like themselves. It's nothing to be proud of.
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Old September 12 2012, 09:12 PM   #51
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

Christopher wrote: View Post
Captain Atkin wrote: View Post
The fact is, many people do need characters that they can relate too, and that is why female superhero movies tend to not do as well as male superhero films at the box office.
And that's what's wrong with the world -- the inability of so many people to relate to those who are not like themselves. It's nothing to be proud of.
I don't think you quite get what I am saying, so let me put it to you another way. Live-action films like Supergirl, Electra, and Catwoman often have male characters that are poorly written, and not fleshed out enough to make an impact on male viewers. They are often written in a way that makes them boring as hell. Males tend to not like these secondary male characters because of the bad writting, and thus cannot relate to them. This doesn't mean that the males watching these films can't relate to the female heros. Logically, the reason they are even in the theatre is to watch those female heros. But when male roles are written poorly, it tends to turn men off from watching those movies more than once. The box office numbers don't lie.
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Old September 12 2012, 09:15 PM   #52
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

^Yeah, but wouldn't badly written characters of either sex turn off viewers of either sex? Why even make it a gender issue if you're actually talking about the quality of character writing?
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Old September 12 2012, 09:18 PM   #53
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Yeah, but wouldn't badly written characters of either sex turn off viewers of either sex? Why even make it a gender issue if you're actually talking about the quality of character writing?
The Dark Knight Rises is a film with strong performances from all of the male and female characters, that encourages repeat viewings. All of the characters are strong and well written. The Amazing Spider-Man also had a strong male/female dynamic. For the life of me, I cannot think of a single female supehero movie where this is the case. Supergirl? Halle Berry's Catwoman? Tomb Raider? Electra? Men are often dumbed down in these films. If that isn't sexism, I don't know what is.
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Old September 12 2012, 10:03 PM   #54
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

Captain Atkin wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
^Yeah, but wouldn't badly written characters of either sex turn off viewers of either sex? Why even make it a gender issue if you're actually talking about the quality of character writing?
The Dark Knight Rises is a film with strong performances from all of the male and female characters, that encourages repeat viewings. All of the characters are strong and well written. The Amazing Spider-Man also had a strong male/female dynamic. For the life of me, I cannot think of a single female supehero movie where this is the case. Supergirl? Halle Berry's Catwoman? Tomb Raider? Electra? Men are often dumbed down in these films. If that isn't sexism, I don't know what is.
Supergirl tanked for all sorts of reasons that had nothing to do with male/female dynamic. Electra failed for all sorts of reasons, too. I can't speak about the others in your list because I haven't seen them, however cursory research indicates that while a critical failure, Lara Croft: Tomb Raider was a box office success. I don't believe you've demonstrated that lack of male/female dynamic was a problem with those films.
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Old September 12 2012, 10:09 PM   #55
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

^That's true, although I'd hardly count Lara Croft as a superhero.

Part of the problem is that there are so few female-led superhero movies that there simply isn't a large enough sample size to base any statistically meaningful analyses on. So the real question that needs to be asked isn't "What's wrong with female-led superhero movies?" but "Why are there still so few of them?" I mean, we've had strong female action heroes for decades now, from Ripley and Sarah Connor to Evelyn Salt and the leads of the Underworld and Resident Evil franchises. So obviously action movies with female leads can succeed. Which makes the lack of such movies in the superhero subgenre in particular something of an anomaly.
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Old September 12 2012, 11:35 PM   #56
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

I think its going to take a female superhero who is completely a standalone character to be a success. Both Supergirl and Electra are spinoff of male characters. I am not saying a good spinoff or supporting female in a lead role can not be well made. But to have big impact and be embraced.

All of the non-superhero female leads listed are not cousins or girlfriends of other more well known characters.
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Old September 12 2012, 11:46 PM   #57
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

Wow. You guys have really taken this thread off topic...I really made a mistake calling it what I did. We're going to need some actual news from the Lost City of Krypton DTV to change the topic back! LOL
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Old September 12 2012, 11:50 PM   #58
Christopher
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

Donald Draper wrote: View Post
I think its going to take a female superhero who is completely a standalone character to be a success. Both Supergirl and Electra are spinoff of male characters. I am not saying a good spinoff or supporting female in a lead role can not be well made. But to have big impact and be embraced.

All of the non-superhero female leads listed are not cousins or girlfriends of other more well known characters.

The problem is, there aren't that many female superheroes who aren't either spinoffs of male superheroes or members of teams. Wonder Woman is the main one who comes to mind. The others are generally not very well-known. Amethyst? Dazzler? Hellcat?

Still, I think it's oversimplistic to say that spinoff characters can never succeed. Again, we simply don't have a large enough sample set to draw any reliable conclusions about cause and effect. I mean, sure, the Halle Berry Catwoman movie bombed, but that was because it was an incredibly bad movie. I bet an Anne Hathaway Catwoman movie, spinning off the version of Selina from The Dark Knight Rises, would do tons better. Catwoman is a character who's largely transcended her spinoff origins to become one of DC's major solo heroines, despite technically being part of the extended Batman family. She-Hulk is a popular character who's become very distinct from her male counterpart, having her own adventures in their own separate style and being a major standalone character despite her origins. You could say much the same about Carol Danvers, who was originally a distaff knockoff of Captain Marvel, but now is Captain Marvel.

EDIT: Okay, I'm trying to compile of list of movies about solo female comic-book heroes. What I can come up with are:

Barbarella
Barb Wire
Catwoman
Elektra
Red Sonja
Sheena
Supergirl
Tank Girl


There's also Josie and the Pussycats, but I'm not sure if they count as action heroes.

Now, all of those movies were critical or box-office failures, as far as I'm aware, but at least half of them were characters that weren't spinoffs of male protagonists. So I don't think that holds up as a determining factor.

And it is a pretty small sample size -- eight or at most nine movies in the past 45 years. Now, there have been literally tens of thousands of movies made in that span of time, and I think it's safe to say that a sizeable majority have been mediocre to poor, since bad movies always outnumber good. So if you pick any eight movies at random out of that set of tens of thousands or more, there's a very good chance that you'll pick eight failures. Which is why I don't think the sample size is large enough to conclude that the gender of the heroines, or their relationship to male heroes, or any particular thing is a causative factor. Statistically speaking, there's no pattern that's provably distinct from random chance. Except the pattern that disproportionately few female-led comic-book movies are being made in the first place.
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Last edited by Christopher; September 13 2012 at 12:08 AM.
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Old September 13 2012, 12:08 AM   #59
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Captain Atkin wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
^Yeah, but wouldn't badly written characters of either sex turn off viewers of either sex? Why even make it a gender issue if you're actually talking about the quality of character writing?
The Dark Knight Rises is a film with strong performances from all of the male and female characters, that encourages repeat viewings. All of the characters are strong and well written. The Amazing Spider-Man also had a strong male/female dynamic. For the life of me, I cannot think of a single female supehero movie where this is the case. Supergirl? Halle Berry's Catwoman? Tomb Raider? Electra? Men are often dumbed down in these films. If that isn't sexism, I don't know what is.
Supergirl tanked for all sorts of reasons that had nothing to do with male/female dynamic. Electra failed for all sorts of reasons, too. I can't speak about the others in your list because I haven't seen them, however cursory research indicates that while a critical failure, Lara Croft: Tomb Raider was a box office success. I don't believe you've demonstrated that lack of male/female dynamic was a problem with those films.
Off the top of your head, without cheating, try to name one male character from any of those films I listed.
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Old September 13 2012, 12:22 AM   #60
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Re: Supergirl Animated Movie

Jimmy Olsen.
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