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Old September 11 2012, 01:32 PM   #76
Timo
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Re: A Warp Fighter

there is no reason to use a yacht
Hence Starfleet would never build one.

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Old September 11 2012, 05:18 PM   #77
C.E. Evans
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Re: A Warp Fighter

Mars wrote: View Post
^ That's right, a very important person, so what's an enemy Romulan going to do if he sees the Captain's yacht separate out from the Enterprise when they are in battle?
Well, I was thinking it would be a craft that wouldn't be used any potentially dangerous situation, much less a battle. I don't think it would even be armed.

I think the captain's yacht aboard the Enterprise-E, was built with some tactical sensibilities in mind, though. Picard used it to go after Data's scout craft and it could fire at least tachyon bursts. They're not as destructive as phasers and can be used for many different purposes, but they can disrupt various systems aboard other vessels too.
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Old September 11 2012, 06:41 PM   #78
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Re: A Warp Fighter

Mars wrote: View Post
The Enterprise has shuttles, there is no reason to use a yacht, also flying in a yacht is an advertisement that some important person is there, its like a general riding on a horse amongst the infantry, any enemy with a little bit of brains would know who to shoot at. My guess is Picard didn't want to wear such a huge "bullseye" on his back.
All very good reasons not to HAVE a yacht in the first place.
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Old September 12 2012, 09:19 AM   #79
Timo
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Re: A Warp Fighter

In all of Star Trek, there are just two dialogue references to a vehicle called "Captain's Yacht", both from ST:Insurrection. I'd rather prefer to dismiss both. After all, Captains don't have yachts. They might have boats or launches or something. But only civilians have yachts ITRW!

The first comes from the scene where Picard fails to hide his little insurrection from his fellow officers.

Troi: "Taking the Captain's yacht out for a spin?"
Now, Troi is actually dribbling with sarcasm here. So it would be pretty easy to read this line as Troi saying "Ah, I see you are equipping our LSL-22 Surface Assault Barge (Heavy) for a mission, Captain"...

The second is more objective, though.

Son'a sidekick Gallatin: "Sir, as the Enterprise left orbit, one of their support craft went down to the surface. It appeared to be the Captain's yacht. Five persons on board."
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Old September 12 2012, 11:45 AM   #80
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Re: A Warp Fighter

So, in other words, there is really conclusive evidence that the Enterprise-E had a Captain's yacht.
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Old September 12 2012, 12:00 PM   #81
Timo
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Re: A Warp Fighter

Alas. But, thankfully, none for the E-D having such a thing.

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Old September 12 2012, 01:00 PM   #82
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Re: A Warp Fighter

Timo wrote: View Post
Alas. But, thankfully, none for the E-D having such a thing.

Timo Saloniemi
Why do you care, if its part of the standard design then all Galaxy Class starships come with captain's yachts whether the captain wants to use them or not, it is actually attached to the bottom of the Saucer section. Yep that's where the blueprints say it is. The enterprise has a lot of things that aren't shown in the show, including cetean water tanks, some of its crewmembers are dolphins and other aquatic creatures.
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Old September 12 2012, 01:14 PM   #83
Timo
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Re: A Warp Fighter

But as said many times over, there's no room for a Captain's Yacht in the TV show. Either it would have been shown whenever Picard travels, or then there are pressing in-universe reasons why Picard can never travel on it so it cannot exist.

There's nothing on the bottom of the saucer that would look the slightest bit like a "yacht", so that argument is moot as well. The only way to believe in the Yacht is to claim a priori that it exists, and then start seeing it everywhere or invent reasons why it's nowhere. Which we can do e.g. for things Paramount could not afford to show "for real" but did mention in dialogue. But the Yacht isn't one of those.

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Old September 12 2012, 02:20 PM   #84
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Re: A Warp Fighter

Alright, I think that it is there, but there are good reasons it is not used (not-warp capable, no armor, problems with re-attachment, Picard doesn't like it ...) - as you said Timo.

But I can understand your point. Timo could you please list some (let's say 3-4) examples where you think they ought to have mentioned/used the yacht?

A big support for your argument is the Galaxy-X refit in "All Good Things...". After all, the Phaser spinal lance would prohibit the use of the yacht if it were still (or at all) on board.
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Old September 12 2012, 02:31 PM   #85
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Re: A Warp Fighter

Timo wrote: View Post
There's nothing on the bottom of the saucer that would look the slightest bit like a "yacht", so that argument is moot as well.
According to Memory Alpha, Andrew Probert—you know, the only person credited for the design of the Enterprise-D in real life—disagrees [http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Captain's_yacht] [http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Andrew_Probert]. Speaking of Mr. Probert, he's a member of the board, isn't he? Perhaps he could chime in on the issue of whether anything on the bottom of the saucer of the Enterprise-D looks like a Captain's yacht.

Paging Mr. Probert!
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Old September 12 2012, 02:57 PM   #86
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Re: A Warp Fighter

Timo could you please list some (let's say 3-4) examples where you think they ought to have mentioned/used the yacht?
"Samaritan Snare" involves a long trip that Picard performs for what he considers secretive, personal reasons - a good time to travel in comfort, on resources not needed by anybody else. The lack of a Yacht there seems to rule out its role as a private pleasure vessel. "Rascals" supports that view, again depicting a holiday trip; the conference in "Timescape" is only marginally less private an excuse. And it's not as if Picard used the craft for "Captain's Holiday", either - although everybody may have agreed that it was important to have him stuck on Risa, rather than free to travel and perhaps rejoin the crew before he had gotten sufficiently relaxed.

It might be the craft lacks warp engines and is just a glorified elevator for arriving on planets in style. (Why such a thing would be called a "yacht" evades me, though.) But "The Host" is an example of the Yacht not being a craft for ferrying dignitaries over short distances, either, or it would have been used by Odan there.

Also, "Q Who?" involves Q kidnapping Picard to a standard shuttlecraft. Why not the Yacht, all things considered? And "Final Mission" is unexplainable in its use of a non-Starfleet shuttlecraft to begin with, but that's a somewhat different issue.

It might be that the E-D did possess some sort of a utility craft for a mission type that never was witnessed in the show. But we saw pleasure yachting of various sorts, and that wasn't it. We saw infiltration missions, and that wasn't it. We saw flying through dangerous environments, and that wasn't it. About the only thing we missed was the ferrying of large numbers of troops (perhaps the Yacht performed an offscreen role of that sort in "Descent"?), or perhaps the establishing of a research or diplomacy outpost. The thing might be a flying barracks (the shape would certainly cater for it) - but why call it a "yacht", then?

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Old September 12 2012, 03:20 PM   #87
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Re: A Warp Fighter

Timo wrote: View Post
Timo could you please list some (let's say 3-4) examples where you think they ought to have mentioned/used the yacht?
"Samaritan Snare" involves a long trip that Picard performs for what he considers secretive, personal reasons - a good time to travel in comfort, on resources not needed by anybody else. The lack of a Yacht there seems to rule out its role as a private pleasure vessel. "Rascals" supports that view, again depicting a holiday trip; the conference in "Timescape" is only marginally less private an excuse. And it's not as if Picard used the craft for "Captain's Holiday", either - although everybody may have agreed that it was important to have him stuck on Risa, rather than free to travel and perhaps rejoin the crew before he had gotten sufficiently relaxed.

It might be the craft lacks warp engines and is just a glorified elevator for arriving on planets in style. (Why such a thing would be called a "yacht" evades me, though.) But "The Host" is an example of the Yacht not being a craft for ferrying dignitaries over short distances, either, or it would have been used by Odan there.

Also, "Q Who?" involves Q kidnapping Picard to a standard shuttlecraft. Why not the Yacht, all things considered? And "Final Mission" is unexplainable in its use of a non-Starfleet shuttlecraft to begin with, but that's a somewhat different issue.

It might be that the E-D did possess some sort of a utility craft for a mission type that never was witnessed in the show. But we saw pleasure yachting of various sorts, and that wasn't it. We saw infiltration missions, and that wasn't it. We saw flying through dangerous environments, and that wasn't it. About the only thing we missed was the ferrying of large numbers of troops (perhaps the Yacht performed an offscreen role of that sort in "Descent"?), or perhaps the establishing of a research or diplomacy outpost. The thing might be a flying barracks (the shape would certainly cater for it) - but why call it a "yacht", then?

Timo Saloniemi
Thank you. I will take a refresh course and re-watch those episodes.

As to why "yacht", can it be cultural issue? Do you see "yacht" used as the historical "hunting boat", or more like today's "recreational boat"?

PS From TNG Technical Manual:
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Old September 12 2012, 03:35 PM   #88
Timo
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Re: A Warp Fighter

The use of naval jargon in Trek may be at variance with RN or USN traditions, of course. After all, the shuttles aren't "boats" or "launches", either.

One might think that the TNG depiction of the craft, lacking warp engines and having fancy atmospheric flight systems in addition to impulse drive, might make her a "barge", in the sense of a "royal barge". In any case, there would appear to be a need to distinguish her from the shuttles that have significantly different propulsive capabilities. But "yacht" seems to go in an entirely wrong direction, being traditionally more capable in navigation than a "boat" or a "launch".

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Old September 12 2012, 05:42 PM   #89
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Re: A Warp Fighter

[QUOTE=Timo;6949027]
It might be that the E-D did possess some sort of a utility craft for a mission type that never was witnessed in the show. But we saw pleasure yachting of various sorts, and that wasn't it. We saw infiltration missions, and that wasn't it. We saw flying through dangerous environments, and that wasn't it. About the only thing we missed was the ferrying of large numbers of troops (perhaps the Yacht performed an offscreen role of that sort in "Descent"?), or perhaps the establishing of a research or diplomacy outpost. The thing might be a flying barracks (the shape would certainly cater for it) - but why call it a "yacht", then?
It could also be that a dedicated Yacht set would have been expensive to maintain, and due to the infrequent need for it on the show it was easier to just have Picard in a shuttle, of which one was used nearly every other episode.

We also saw limited use of the saucer separation sequence; the first was in the pilot, for which there was the funding to create the sequence. Later, we see it again but it is re-used footage. The sequence in Generations is a film, so more money available. The writers probably had limited in-universe reasons for needing to see a saucer separation at all, so it was ultimately a seldom used occurrence.

It's the same reason a Runabout was used in Timescape (easy to borrow the set from DS9) but never seen again. Before that, it was never mentioned that the Enterprise-D even HAD a compliment of Runabouts.
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Old September 12 2012, 08:08 PM   #90
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Re: A Warp Fighter

Hando wrote: View Post
But I can understand your point. Timo could you please list some (let's say 3-4) examples where you think they ought to have mentioned/used the yacht?
Tangental, but related: there's a blanket category of evidence against Voyager's aeroshuttle in the case of the Delta Flyer; this is a craft built from scratch to accomplish what the aeroshuttle should have been designed to do from the get go; indeed, the mission into that gas giant is the ONLY kind of mission you would ever need an aeroshuttle for, and if it was so ill-suited to the task they could have easily modified and enhanced it for that task instead of building a whole new ship from scratch. Conversely, if the shuttle was so badly damaged that they couldn't even use it (nothing on the USS Voyager was ever THAT badly damaged) they could have simply ejected and scrapped it and put the Delta Flyer into that saucer slot.

Two series' in a row where every single time a "captain's yacht" or similar craft ought to be used, they pick something else instead.
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