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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old September 11 2012, 06:42 PM   #61
Distorted Humor
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

I just watched the opening episode of DS9 last night in my rewatching of the series, and it gives a nice power to the episode as we see Sisko go from being a man who still has not gotten over the lost of the love of his life (which can take a long time) and someone who was on the path of long term ruin, take the first steps to get over the loss and move on.

Also, it was nice to see that in the future, sometimes folks can be jerks. I love TNG, but it it had less personal conflict then any of the other series, including TOS.
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Old September 11 2012, 09:22 PM   #62
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

^Yes, I believe that Gene Roddenberry decided, when writing the TNG bible, that 24th century humans would have advanced beyond personal conflict and strife. Ignoring the creative limits that this would place on storytelling.
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Old September 12 2012, 12:28 AM   #63
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
^Yes, I believe that Gene Roddenberry decided, when writing the TNG bible, that 24th century humans would have advanced beyond personal conflict and strife. Ignoring the creative limits that this would place on storytelling.
A nonsensical notion that a child wouldn't grieve for a parent was brought up too. That really just belittles life and values as a whole in my opinion. That would be a souless enviornment to raise a kid in if they don't even care if their mom dies.
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Old September 12 2012, 10:53 PM   #64
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

nvm
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Old September 13 2012, 12:05 AM   #65
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

R. Star wrote: View Post
Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
^Yes, I believe that Gene Roddenberry decided, when writing the TNG bible, that 24th century humans would have advanced beyond personal conflict and strife. Ignoring the creative limits that this would place on storytelling.
A nonsensical notion that a child wouldn't grieve for a parent was brought up too. That really just belittles life and values as a whole in my opinion. That would be a souless enviornment to raise a kid in if they don't even care if their mom dies.
Yeah, and it sounds a little too much like Aldous Huxley's Brave New World to me. I don't want that kind of world, and I'm glad Sisko/Jake didn't live in it.
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Old September 13 2012, 01:09 PM   #66
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

R. Star wrote: View Post
Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
^Yes, I believe that Gene Roddenberry decided, when writing the TNG bible, that 24th century humans would have advanced beyond personal conflict and strife. Ignoring the creative limits that this would place on storytelling.
A nonsensical notion that a child wouldn't grieve for a parent was brought up too. That really just belittles life and values as a whole in my opinion. That would be a souless enviornment to raise a kid in if they don't even care if their mom dies.
Who said anything about not caring? People were supposed to be more psychologically stable (through their whole upbringing, education and the social environment they live in), meaning that the death of a loved one doesn't mean the end of the world. That has nothing to do with "not caring". Geez.

I'm guessing that in Roddenberry's world there's no depression and suicides either.
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Old September 13 2012, 01:18 PM   #67
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

The death of a loved one doesn't mean the end of the world now or indeed ever. It's not a utopian ideal.
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Old September 13 2012, 03:51 PM   #68
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

I dont believe GR meant that future humans would be completely free of strife and total BFFs with everyone but that petty fighting and the like would be rarer, the same way humanity (for the most part) is less barbaric than a thousand years ago. ST main characters are largely presented as heroic figures. Heroic characters can be heroic only if they are also capable of evil. If humans can only do good things, they couldnt be called heroes,they'd be little different from machines.

As for Sisko/Picard, of course Sisko doesn't believe Picard is responsible for his wife's death, otherwise he'd go right for Jean-Luc's throat the moment he sees him. In his mind however, Picard is associated with the most painful moment of his life, so meeting him again under any circumstance isn't going to be a happy experience.
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Old September 13 2012, 04:41 PM   #69
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

grabthars hammer wrote: View Post
I dont believe GR meant that future humans would be completely free of strife and total BFFs with everyone but that petty fighting and the like would be rarer, the same way humanity (for the most part) is less barbaric than a thousand years ago. ST main characters are largely presented as heroic figures. Heroic characters can be heroic only if they are also capable of evil. If humans can only do good things, they couldnt be called heroes,they'd be little different from machines.

As for Sisko/Picard, of course Sisko doesn't believe Picard is responsible for his wife's death, otherwise he'd go right for Jean-Luc's throat the moment he sees him. In his mind however, Picard is associated with the most painful moment of his life, so meeting him again under any circumstance isn't going to be a happy experience.
Wonderful post.
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Old September 14 2012, 07:49 PM   #70
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

Why, thank you
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Old September 14 2012, 11:51 PM   #71
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
"Forgiven" implies Picard did something wrong, he didn't.

What happened was that Sisko just realized Picard was no different from him, another victim and wasn't deserving of any scorn.
Right. Well, that's what *should* have happened in the show. For all wthe viewer knows, sisko still hates picard. Theres no payoff scene where he shows that he doesnt hold it against him, unfortunately.
It's called subtext. We did get resolution on Sisko letting go of his anger towards Picard and not holding things against him anymore, in their last scene.
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Old September 15 2012, 03:22 AM   #72
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

The problem with subtext, is it really is speculative and not everyone draws the same conclusions.
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Old September 15 2012, 03:33 AM   #73
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

Sci wrote: View Post
It's called subtext. We did get resolution on Sisko letting go of his anger towards Picard and not holding things against him anymore, in their last scene.
Sadly, some people need things completely spelled out for them.
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Old September 15 2012, 05:25 AM   #74
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

R. Star wrote: View Post
The problem with subtext, is it really is speculative and not everyone draws the same conclusions.
That's not a problem, that's a feature. It's why this is art and not science.
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Old September 15 2012, 06:52 AM   #75
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Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko

Sci wrote: View Post
Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
"Forgiven" implies Picard did something wrong, he didn't.

What happened was that Sisko just realized Picard was no different from him, another victim and wasn't deserving of any scorn.
Right. Well, that's what *should* have happened in the show. For all wthe viewer knows, sisko still hates picard. Theres no payoff scene where he shows that he doesnt hold it against him, unfortunately.
It's called subtext. We did get resolution on Sisko letting go of his anger towards Picard and not holding things against him anymore, in their last scene.
I am well aware that Sisko let go of his anger towards Picard, and you'll see that in the posts I made after the one you quoted. No need for condescending tone ("It's called subtext")

The issue I have with it is that he never expresses any sort of shame or regret for being such a dick to him in the first place. Not at all. He just shakes his hand and smiles (while picard is still visibly distant/stern/not very happy... but Sisko just ignores that while smiling). It's like he thinks that just because he has let go of his irrational anger toward Picard that it excuses how he behaved earlier.

It's not an issue of him still being angry, it's an issue of him coming off as a self centered insensitive ass.


1. Sisko acts like a total jerk to Picard because he is angry at him for something Picard had no control over. (Totally Understandable, even though illogical. He is only human.)
2. Sisko lets go of anger; realizes Picard wasn't at fault.
3. Sisko, no longer angry, gleefully accepts new position, but makes absolutely no effort to apologize for acting like Jerk, even though he now realizes his anger was misguided.

Seems like he skipped a step to me.

It would appear the person who did the novelization agrees with me since that's one area where it is quite different.
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