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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old September 11 2012, 06:44 PM   #61
Geoff Peterson
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Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus

ssosmcin wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Scotty being nonplussed could have also been because of the implications with respect to non-interference.
Maybe, but it looked or felt more like a "you want me to do what now?" Not so much because of the Prime Directive (he knows who his boss is - he's used to it) but because he has a tough job ahead of him.
I thought is was more a WTF? Flintlocks??? reaction.
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Old September 11 2012, 07:52 PM   #62
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Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus

ssosmcin wrote: View Post
. . . I was always of the mind they weren't creating food as much as delivering it. There were too many references to "the galley." I envisioned people making food and storing it. Then when you placed your order in the slot, it was beamed in or something. The food slots seemed a tad too magical for me sometimes.
As David Gerrold wrote (I think it was in The World of Star Trek): "Good grief! It makes you wonder what's going on behind the walls of the Enterprise."

Doug Otte wrote: View Post
. . . Suppose a transporter tech dripped soy sauce on the control panel just before a critical transport was required?
Maybe the transported personnel would turn Japanese?

(Sorry, couldn't resist)
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Old September 11 2012, 09:09 PM   #63
Warped9
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Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
ssosmcin wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Scotty being nonplussed could have also been because of the implications with respect to non-interference.
Maybe, but it looked or felt more like a "you want me to do what now?" Not so much because of the Prime Directive (he knows who his boss is - he's used to it) but because he has a tough job ahead of him.
I thought is was more a WTF? Flintlocks??? reaction.
Yeah, that's what I thought.
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Old September 11 2012, 09:16 PM   #64
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Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus

There is no evidence internal to TOS that there are food replicators aboard the Enterprise.
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Old September 11 2012, 09:43 PM   #65
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Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
There is no evidence internal to TOS that there are food replicators aboard the Enterprise.
No evidence contrary to it either.
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Old September 11 2012, 09:55 PM   #66
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Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus

Warped9 wrote: View Post
My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
There is no evidence internal to TOS that there are food replicators aboard the Enterprise.
No evidence contrary to it either.
So what? You have no real evidence that I'm not Cindy Crawford, but it would nonetheless be absurd to assume that I am.

That said, as has been already pointed out in this thread there is evidence internal to TOS that more traditional food storage and preparation took place aboard the ship - the aforementioned infestation of the system by tribbles and Chef Roddenberry's concerns about turkey loaf.
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Old September 11 2012, 10:58 PM   #67
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Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus

This really is a stupid discussion. They can obviously fabricate things even if it's not instaneous. Who cares if it's called a food processor or a replicator? They're both doing similar things: using raw material or raw matter to be processed into the form they desire.

And just because they have this system it doesn't automatically preclude having some food stored in a more conventional way.
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Old September 12 2012, 12:43 AM   #68
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Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus

Captain Shatner wrote: View Post
Apart from the weirdness of naming your leader "The Dolmen", there's quite a bigger problem with Elaan of Troiyus. In fact, this problem can in fact be applied to quite a number of Trek episodes. Here it is...

WHY CAN'T THE CREW USE THE REPLICATOR TO MAKE DILITHIUM CRYSTALS???

It appears that the replicator works on the same basis as the transporter, storing "pattern buffers" of different objects to reproduce different objects, mainly food. But you'd think that some enterprising (pun intended!) Starfleet engineer would figure out that you could store other patterns buffers, mainly, dilithium crystals, in the replicator Then you could conjure them up at will...instead of taking them off of a Dolmen's neck....
The internal structure of Dilithium has polarization effects which make it impossible to replicate.

Or some other techy explanation.
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Old September 13 2012, 01:26 AM   #69
Captain Shatner
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Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus

Having read through this discussion, here are the basic threads I sort of pulled from it. Summarized as:

1. There is probably a combination of real and synthesized food on the Enterprise. Picard's ship has a galley (Complete with a Whoopi Goldberg!), so we can make the general assumption that Kirk has one too. But, thanks to Charlie X, we know they synthesize turkey.

2. For some strange, unknowable reason, dilithium is impossible to replicate. Whether this be the instability of the nucleus or because Kirk said so, you just can't make dilithium.

3. The food replicator may or may not have the ability to replicate things other than food. We see this in the manufacture of flintlocks on short notice, since it is unlikely that the Enterprise carried 18th century weapons on board.

4. Fascinatingly enough, nobody ever addressed the question of using the transporter to replicate stuff. Obviously, cloning is possible, albeit with amusing results, so what's so wrong with using it to convert one object into another?
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Old September 13 2012, 07:59 AM   #70
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Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus

Warped9 wrote: View Post
My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
There is no evidence internal to TOS that there are food replicators aboard the Enterprise.
No evidence contrary to it either.
The incident with the tribbles is evidence that what the TOS Enterprise has, isn't what the Enterprise Dee has. The food in Trouble with Tribbles wasn't being materialized in the small alcoves and then the little door opens. The food was being produced elsewhere and then was moved to the dining area. How do we know this? Because the tribbles needed a opportunity to get to the food.

When were the tribbles going to be "jumping" on to the food, if the replicator is materializing the food inside of the alcove?

And where was Scotty bring them from, when he said that they were in the food processors?
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Old September 13 2012, 08:23 AM   #71
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Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus

1. There is probably a combination of real and synthesized food on the Enterprise. Picard's ship has a galley (Complete with a Whoopi Goldberg!), so we can make the general assumption that Kirk has one too.
As far as we know, Guinan never cooked. Even in the parallel universe of "Yesterday's Enterprise", her establishment served MREs...

But we explicitly saw cooks doing their usual work aboard Kirk's ship in the 2290s, making it all the more likely that such things took place in the 2260s as well.

But, thanks to Charlie X, we know they synthesize turkey.
But whether they do that onboard, or in the factory that packages the stuff for the mission at Starbase 42, we don't know.

2. For some strange, unknowable reason, dilithium is impossible to replicate. Whether this be the instability of the nucleus or because Kirk said so, you just can't make dilithium.
There is no real reason to think dilithium could not be replicated.

From various episodes, we know that functioning neural tissue can be replicated but people still don't replicate replacement brains; that functioning phasers can be replicated but people still store readymade phasers in locked cabinets; and that tools can be replicated as needed but the engineers still haul entire belts full of different tools, rather than a single tool that can become anything at the push of a button, exocomp style.

It's simply that replication is sometimes less practical than other manufacturing methods, not that it would ever be impossible.

Remember that replicators could not solve the problem of the missing circulator pump in "Devil in the Dark", yet we know that the pump must be nothing but a slightly more complex flintlock. Somebody created it at some point, using unknown technologies. But the feat could not be repeated instantaneously, even though a comparable feat could be achieved a tad more slowly in "A Private Little War". There's plenty of room for "conventional" manufacturing and acquisition technologies in the Trek universe, despite the parallel existence of amazing new technologies. Just like in the real world today.

3. The food replicator may or may not have the ability to replicate things other than food. We see this in the manufacture of flintlocks on short notice, since it is unlikely that the Enterprise carried 18th century weapons on board.
OTOH, a food replicator could not have made a flintlock, because the barrel would not fit inside.

It's pretty clear that whatever manufacturing capabilities Kirk's TOS ship has, these are based on separate machinery in dedicated workshops. No doubt this separation is also reflected in said machinery being optimized for its job and thus at least subtly and probably grossly different from the food-producing systems, even if both happen to rely on the same scientific principles of bringing things to existence.

4. Fascinatingly enough, nobody ever addressed the question of using the transporter to replicate stuff. Obviously, cloning is possible, albeit with amusing results, so what's so wrong with using it to convert one object into another?
Cloning only happens by curious accident, which our heroes struggle to understand. Trying to make use of that is a bit like trying to power your computer with lightning strikes. And we never get any indication that the transporter could transform an object in any significant way. At best, it can take things away from the object: remove disease carriers, depower a weapon, make Kirk's clone a few retards short of a Jack Pack...

The bottom line is, Star Trek has never been a show where much-needed things can be made to appear trivially on demand. It always involves a lot of sweat, blood and tears to get stuff done, just like today. I can cook; I can build a small house; I can even pile atoms on an AFM to create a funny stick figure a few nanometers tall. It doesn't follow that I could make a pony appear out of thin air, least of all if I desperately needed one for a quick getaway.

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Old September 20 2012, 02:12 PM   #72
Robert Comsol
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Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus

Captain Shatner wrote: View Post
"For some strange, unknowable reason, dilithium is impossible to replicate. Whether this be the instability of the nucleus or because Kirk said so, you just can't make dilithium."
Considering dilithium crystals are still a form of matter and are in close proximity where the annihilation of matter and antimatter take place, it's doesn't seem to be that strange to me that it's something you can't replicate (like antimatter). The properties of dilithium appear somewhat supernatural.

If this were the hardest natural substance known to federation science (cast rodinium is or was at one point the hardest artificial substance) the question would be inevitably how you could be capable to give it a specific shape or form.
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Old September 20 2012, 02:47 PM   #73
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Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus

In Trekverse, there appears to be at least 2 other periodic tables as "di"-lithium and "tri"-lithium seem to suggest. There may also be "di" carbon, "di" iron, "tri" magnesium, and so on. Maybe these other elements cannot be replicated, for some reason. The gemstones in "Catspaw" may be made up of the "common" elements which can be replicated, hence Kirk's comment on being able to manufacture them.
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Old September 20 2012, 03:02 PM   #74
Forbin
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Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
In Charlie X Kirk tells Charlie: On Earth today, it's Thanksgiving.
That line kills me. Thanksgiving, on ALL of Earth?! Or just the US? Canada?
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Old September 20 2012, 05:56 PM   #75
Geoff Peterson
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Re: Gaping Hole of Troiyus

Forbin wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
In Charlie X Kirk tells Charlie: On Earth today, it's Thanksgiving.
That line kills me. Thanksgiving, on ALL of Earth?! Or just the US? Canada?
Its an Earthican holiday.
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