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Old September 10 2012, 04:45 PM   #136
Sindatur
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Re: What if a BSG-styled remake of Babylon 5 was made?

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Mars wrote: View Post
Silvercrest wrote: View Post

Why?



What does one have to do with the other?
Because BSG has no aliens, the cylons were built by humans, there were no aliens.
That has nothing to do with B5. You sound as though RDM will not feature aliens in any of his works.
psssst...check the thread title, "BSG-Style remake of Babylon 5"
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Old September 10 2012, 05:15 PM   #137
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Re: What if a BSG-styled remake of Babylon 5 was made?

Tulin wrote: View Post
We were promised this galaxy-wide war early on and what we got, though quite grand, never seemed to live up to that. One way of getting around really expensive CGI would be to do some kind of scroll(I am thinking like the one they did at the beginning of "Emissary" for DS9)with reports from various sectors and quadrants. You show brief, couple of second clips of fleets, squadrons of soldiers going into battle(again, CGI but BRIEF)and, through the written word, you convey SWEEPING and VAST conflicts.

I always envisioned this for B5 but never felt the displayed depictions of "WAR!!!" were extensive enough. You don't need much - you just to convey that it is affecting EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE.
Um, I don't remember ever being promised a 'galaxy wide war'... considoring how the Babylon 5 Galaxy is barely explored yet, i think it'd be hard to do a war on the scale you're describing and fit within the confines of the Babylon 5 universe...

Nothing ever said in Babylon 5 points to a war that stretches the galaxy across... in fact, exactly the opposite is true...

In And The Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place, Sheridan and Delenn are studying Shadow attacks from the start of the war, and they graphically plot these attacks on the War Room Map...



So, according to the episode in question, the entire Shadow war takes place in a tiny sector of space, that barely covers a 10th of the galaxy...

Again, this is brought up in The Summoning, when Lyta Alexander is stressing just how much destruction will be caused by the Vorlon-Shadow War. She exclaims, "Nothing within seventy light-years will survive untouched!"

Seventy light years? the Shadow war, the massive 'galaxy spanning war', covered 70 light years?

Well, given the Babylon 5 station is only 18 light years from Earth... as stated by Lise Hampton Edgars when she tells Garibaldi that she didn't want a relationship with someone who was "18 light-years away"... so saying the entire Shadow war barely covered a 10th of a galaxy, is backed up repeatedly through the series... as it's often said about explorer ships on the "Rim of known space", again this is backed up in A Distant Star, when Captain Jack Maynard is not too thrilled with his job of mapping new regions of space. He complains, "Oh, back out to the rim. The NEW rim, now that we've finished mapping Sector 900. We're hoping to build two new jumpgates by the end of the year, and then have Earth follow up with survey ships."

This clearly says that the "rim" is the edge of known space, as such it recedes as humans and other races explore our region of the galaxy... not the "Rim of the Galaxy" or any such nonsense...

Hyperspace travel in B5 is extremely limited, that's the point of it... while it's pretty fast to get around some systems, for exploration, it's limited as all hell, as you can only follow Hyperspace beacon trails, and if you go too far, you're off the grid, lost, and generally never seen from again...

M
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Old September 10 2012, 05:52 PM   #138
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Re: What if a BSG-styled remake of Babylon 5 was made?

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Mars wrote: View Post

Because BSG has no aliens, the cylons were built by humans, there were no aliens.
That has nothing to do with B5. You sound as though RDM will not feature aliens in any of his works.
psssst...check the thread title, "BSG-Style remake of Babylon 5"
The premise of BSG does not automatically preclude the existence of aliens. After all, there were aliens in the original, and nothing in nuBSG eliminated the possibility that there were still aliens out there somewhere. They just didn't fit into the story that RDM wanted to tell.

And the premise of B5 does lend itself more toward aliens. Yes, you could tell a similar story with human colonies if you wanted-- but if the premise allows either one, then it's simplistic to say, "BSG-style = no aliens ever!!!"

And if you did, it wouldn't really be an accurate version of B5. That show required beings like the Shadows and the First Ones, beings from before humanity. The premise of those races requires them to be aliens. How would you change them to fit? How would you tell the story without them?

By the way, there's nothing in either premise that requires machine guns and precludes energy weapons, either.
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Old September 10 2012, 09:37 PM   #139
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Re: What if a BSG-styled remake of Babylon 5 was made?

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
The premise of BSG does not automatically preclude the existence of aliens. After all, there were aliens in the original, and nothing in nuBSG eliminated the possibility that there were still aliens out there somewhere.
Everyone making nuBSG categorically stated that in their universe, there were no aliens. RDM said it, EJO said it (and threatened to walk off the job if aliens were ever introduced), so I'd count that as canon.
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Old September 10 2012, 09:41 PM   #140
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Re: What if a BSG-styled remake of Babylon 5 was made?

Okay, fair enough. Does that mean "BSG-style" automatically means "no aliens ever" even when you try to apply it to B5?
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Old September 10 2012, 09:45 PM   #141
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Re: What if a BSG-styled remake of Babylon 5 was made?

^ It highly decreases the likelihood of aliens, let's put it that way.

But if they do B5 like that, it kind of kills the show, since obviously you can't have 'First One'-like characters if there are no aliens. Races like the Centauri, Narn, etc. didn't have a lot of spectacular abilities, but you can't take Vorlons or Shadows and make them into human variants. Races like that are just too powerful and would require way too much rewriting.
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Old September 10 2012, 10:30 PM   #142
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Re: What if a BSG-styled remake of Babylon 5 was made?

Right, that's what I said earlier.

I wasn't trying to debate whether there should be aliens in BSG. I was only addressing the really sketchy connection Mars was making between franchises. He seems to automatically assume that there would be no aliens in a BSG-style B5. (Or energy weapons, either.)

I'm uncertain if Mars is treating that as a major precept of "BSG-style", or if he thinks that's just how RDM works in every case. His phrasing suggests the latter.
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Old September 11 2012, 01:01 AM   #143
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Re: What if a BSG-styled remake of Babylon 5 was made?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ It highly decreases the likelihood of aliens, let's put it that way.
No it really doesn't since the no aliens thing was probably part of the whole barren galaxy with not very many habitable planets to stop at thing they had going on there.
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Old September 11 2012, 05:08 AM   #144
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Re: What if a BSG-styled remake of Babylon 5 was made?

...Barren to humans doesn't mean barren to aliens. That's why they'd be aliens, they wouldn't be like humans!
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Old September 11 2012, 07:14 AM   #145
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Re: What if a BSG-styled remake of Babylon 5 was made?

Methos wrote: View Post
snip...
Great post. It really illustrates the true problem here: the writers had no idea how BIG the galaxy really is. The pic you included shows an area outlined of several thousand light years and would have contained on the order of 600 million stars (give or take 100 million). While the line from the show of "70 light years" would have been a small dot containing maybe 200 to 500 stars.

If the correct number for the "known galaxy" in the show is 70 light years, the number of races evident in that small an area would mean the rest of the galaxy must be a freakin zoo.
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Old September 11 2012, 02:32 PM   #146
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Re: What if a BSG-styled remake of Babylon 5 was made?

I posted this in another recent B5 remake thread:

First off, things should be condensed and streamlined. I enjoyed B5's 1 season = 1 year approach for that particular show, but let's be honest: did it really feel like an entire year had gone by each season? certainly not to me. So scrap it. Things take as long as they need to take, more like on BSG (season 1 covered like 6 weeks, they had time skips if need be, or several episodes can cover a single day).

Next, the story and characters we eventually got are iconic. I know there are people who would love to see the show as originally intended (including me, but not for an actual reboot, more like if I traveled to an alternate universe one of the first things I'd do is buy the dvds of the original 5-year arc), but to me it just wouldn't be B5 without Sheridan, Ivanova, and others. So I would do something similar to the actual show, but with nods to the original storyline, and streamlined to make things less awkward, such as:

This first arc covers several episodes - Ambassadors arrive on Babylon 5. Midseason or so, Kosh is attacked, and Commander Sinclair is framed for it. The Agamemnon, led by Sheridan and Ivanova (who had previously shown up in the first episode at the very least), is dispatched to investigate. They and Garibaldi uncover a conspiracy within the EA government, including first officer Takashima. They cant go public with their findings yet, so Sinclair has to go into hiding, first rooming with Garibaldi, then being granted asylum on Minbar, where he begins his Ranger training alongside Marcus. Takashima is reassigned by her unknown masters and becomes a recurring adversary (perhaps involved with the Night Watch?). Sheridan and Ivanova transfer to B5 to fill the power vacuum (perhaps theres a battle in which the Agamemnon is destroyed?).

Alternately, Ivanova could be B5s second officer and only Sheridan transfers, leaving the Agamemnon in the command of his XO, Elizabeth Lochley.

Sinclair continues to be a major character on the show even after he leaves the station. He slowly learns about the hole in his mind, and about the coming war against the Shadows. He, Sheridan, Delenn, and Kosh have their secret Army of Light conspiracy going from relatively early on.

Lyta Alexander has a second personality, Talia, programmed into her by the Psi Corps. However it ends up going, she takes the super-telepath storyline of the original series, while Ivanova takes the political telepath rebellion storyline (though hopefully without Byron).
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Old September 11 2012, 02:59 PM   #147
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Re: What if a BSG-styled remake of Babylon 5 was made?

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Right, that's what I said earlier.

I wasn't trying to debate whether there should be aliens in BSG. I was only addressing the really sketchy connection Mars was making between franchises. He seems to automatically assume that there would be no aliens in a BSG-style B5. (Or energy weapons, either.)

I'm uncertain if Mars is treating that as a major precept of "BSG-style", or if he thinks that's just how RDM works in every case. His phrasing suggests the latter.
Since No Aliens was a rule in the NuBSG Universe, it's natural when someone says "In the BSG Style", to presume that one aspect of that means without Aliens. If that wasn't intention, that's fine, but, it should be stated, that "No Aliens" aspect, wasn't supposed to be considered, and exactly what "NuBSG Style" does mean, otherwise, other aspects of the show, may be wrongly assumed to be intended, IMHO, of course
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Old September 11 2012, 03:09 PM   #148
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Re: What if a BSG-styled remake of Babylon 5 was made?

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
Silvercrest wrote: View Post

That has nothing to do with B5. You sound as though RDM will not feature aliens in any of his works.
psssst...check the thread title, "BSG-Style remake of Babylon 5"
The premise of BSG does not automatically preclude the existence of aliens. After all, there were aliens in the original, and nothing in nuBSG eliminated the possibility that there were still aliens out there somewhere. They just didn't fit into the story that RDM wanted to tell.

And the premise of B5 does lend itself more toward aliens. Yes, you could tell a similar story with human colonies if you wanted-- but if the premise allows either one, then it's simplistic to say, "BSG-style = no aliens ever!!!"

And if you did, it wouldn't really be an accurate version of B5. That show required beings like the Shadows and the First Ones, beings from before humanity. The premise of those races requires them to be aliens. How would you change them to fit? How would you tell the story without them?

By the way, there's nothing in either premise that requires machine guns and precludes energy weapons, either.
The machine guns and modern as opposed to future technology is another aspect of the BSG style, that means you only have the tech that you need to have in order for it to be a space opera, everything else is just contemporary modern technology, cell phones, laptop computers, GUI interfaces and keyboards. The doctors use scalpels and CAT scans to examine their patients, the kitchens use microwave ovens etc, civilians wear contemporary modern clothes, those in a military service wear uniforms similar to those of a modern armed forces. You need spaceships, jumpgates, hyperdrives but that is all. The ships are equipped with slug throwers and missiles, some of the larger capital ships have nuclear tipped missiles.
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Old September 11 2012, 04:25 PM   #149
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Re: What if a BSG-styled remake of Babylon 5 was made?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ It highly decreases the likelihood of aliens, let's put it that way.

But if they do B5 like that, it kind of kills the show, since obviously you can't have 'First One'-like characters if there are no aliens. Races like the Centauri, Narn, etc. didn't have a lot of spectacular abilities, but you can't take Vorlons or Shadows and make them into human variants. Races like that are just too powerful and would require way too much rewriting.
It would require some rewriting but I think it would be possible. The "first ones" wouldn't really be first ones and there would be no energy beings, just push Babylon 5 further into the future and it becomes possible. in the 23rd century humanity has settled various planets in the galaxy, everything is ruled from earth.
Several colonies (the ones that will become Shadows, Vorlons and other first ones) are fed up with earth and want independence, war breaks out, earth and loyal colonies like minbar, narn and centauri are bombed back into the stone age with 90 to 95% of the population dead, at the end of the war the remains of the earth fleet detonate a superweapon making interstellar travel in the entire old earth empire impossible (think Omega particles from Star Trek for example). All ships are stranded wherever they are, the worlds are completely isolated from each other, even the Shadows etc., who did not lose their technology, populations and most of their infrastructure have to find new ways of FTL travel.

2500 years later the "younger races" have reached the levels of the original B5 technologically and culturally, while the "first ones" used the time to develop super advanced technology and visited and influenced their relatives (genetically engineering telepaths for example).

Done, you can now tell Babylon 5's story without a single alien in sight, all of this has happened before and the old earth empire is marching towards a new war. Pieces of old empire technology replace stuff like the great machine if necessary.
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Old September 11 2012, 04:37 PM   #150
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Re: What if a BSG-styled remake of Babylon 5 was made?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Everyone making nuBSG categorically stated that in their universe, there were no aliens. RDM said it, EJO said it (and threatened to walk off the job if aliens were ever introduced), so I'd count that as canon.
I've never heard anyone say that aliens don't exist, period. As far as I know, it was only implied that they wouldn't be included due to the show's nature as well as Olmos' feelings on the matter. It's entirely possible for the viewer to speculate that they might exist, just that we don't and won't see them. We don't see aliens or ninjas on Seinfeld. That doesn't mean that they don't exist, it just means that we don't see them because they're not part of what the show is trying to do.

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Since No Aliens was a rule in the NuBSG Universe, it's natural when someone says "In the BSG Style", to presume that one aspect of that means without Aliens. If that wasn't intention, that's fine, but, it should be stated, that "No Aliens" aspect, wasn't supposed to be considered, and exactly what "NuBSG Style" does mean, otherwise, other aspects of the show, may be wrongly assumed to be intended, IMHO, of course
To me, "BSG-style" simply means naturalistic (and maybe a bit over-the-top) drama with realistic effects and production values. In other words, Sci fi that looks like it can happen in the real world. It's not as specific as "no aliens". Stargate Universe, The Walking Dead and I believe Falling Skies use that style and they have aliens, with monsters in The Walking Dead's case. I think BSG-style can include anything, so long as the naturalism I mentioned remains at the core. We're just talking TV shows. Lots of movies have already done this, like the Alien and Terminator franchises as well as one-offs like Solaris, The Abyss, Sphere, etc. I see all those as BSG-style.
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