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Old September 11 2012, 02:35 PM   #31
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS-era Defiant-class Ships

Ziz wrote: View Post
Look at it from an existing example - compare the TOS E to the E-D. Yes, they both have a saucer, a dorsal, a secondary, and two nacelles on pylons but the ships don't look like they just kept swapping out parts over the years until one turned into the other. They're both unique builds.
I see your point. But if you were to put the TOS Enterprise next to the TNG Enterprise-D, I would have a hard time making a direct connection about the two other than a general arrangement because they're too far apart generation-wise. The E-D could have evolved from the E-C but beyond that the connection is rather weak.

The Defiant feels more like a ship that was built during the TOS Movies and got shelved. She has similar greebling as the Reliant and the same hull coloring of that time instead of the later blue/blue-green hues of the TNG and Voyager. It is alot easier to make a connection back to TOS by using the TOS Enterprise to TMP Enterprise upgrade as a working model, IMHO. In anycase, the other examples of a TOS Defiant seem all workable as well as long as they have the distinctive nacelle cowlings...

Last edited by blssdwlf; September 11 2012 at 02:45 PM.
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Old September 11 2012, 09:28 PM   #32
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Re: TOS-era Defiant-class Ships

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Ziz wrote: View Post
Look at it from an existing example - compare the TOS E to the E-D. Yes, they both have a saucer, a dorsal, a secondary, and two nacelles on pylons but the ships don't look like they just kept swapping out parts over the years until one turned into the other. They're both unique builds.
I see your point. But if you were to put the TOS Enterprise next to the TNG Enterprise-D, I would have a hard time making a direct connection about the two other than a general arrangement because they're too far apart generation-wise. The E-D could have evolved from the E-C but beyond that the connection is rather weak.

The Defiant feels more like a ship that was built during the TOS Movies and got shelved. She has similar greebling as the Reliant and the same hull coloring of that time instead of the later blue/blue-green hues of the TNG and Voyager. It is alot easier to make a connection back to TOS by using the TOS Enterprise to TMP Enterprise upgrade as a working model, IMHO. In anycase, the other examples of a TOS Defiant seem all workable as well as long as they have the distinctive nacelle cowlings...
Comparing E-C to E-D or TOS to TMP defeats my whole point - they're SUPPOSED to look like they directly evolved from one to the next. From TOS to TNG era is 80-odd years - there should be more separation in ship design in there. These TOS Defiants don't have that, or at least not enough to my eye.
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Old September 12 2012, 02:09 AM   #33
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS-era Defiant-class Ships

Ziz wrote: View Post
Comparing E-C to E-D or TOS to TMP defeats my whole point - they're SUPPOSED to look like they directly evolved from one to the next. From TOS to TNG era is 80-odd years - there should be more separation in ship design in there. These TOS Defiants don't have that, or at least not enough to my eye.
I think this 80 year "separation" you speak off makes any direct line from TOS to TNG not workable, IMO.

For example, what would be the TOS Enterprise's evolved descendent in TNG time? The Enterprise-D? Voyager? Or the Equinox? I'd argue the Equinox because she has the most similar features. The Enterprise-D's bent warp pylons points to the TOS Aurora cruiser that combined with the USS Excelsior

The Defiant's unique look is her engine cowlings. Take the cowlings away on a TOS-era design, I dunno, it starts to look like the USS Grissom, IMHO.
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Old September 12 2012, 04:37 AM   #34
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Re: TOS-era Defiant-class Ships

There's a pretty clear line of descent From the constitution class to the galaxy class.

You're trying to argue that whales don't look like their land based ancestors, therefore modern wolves are the more likely progeny.
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Old September 12 2012, 06:19 AM   #35
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS-era Defiant-class Ships

sojourner wrote: View Post
There's a pretty clear line of descent From the constitution class to the galaxy class.
Versus Constitution to the Nova class?
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Old September 12 2012, 06:59 AM   #36
sojourner
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Re: TOS-era Defiant-class Ships

Constitution>ent-a>excelsior>ambassador>galaxy.
Constitution>.................................> Nova?

The Enterprises grew bigger with each generation and tended to be "the ship" of their time. The Nova has more in common with the Grissom than with a Constitution.
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Old September 12 2012, 07:46 AM   #37
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS-era Defiant-class Ships

sojourner wrote: View Post
Constitution>ent-a>excelsior>ambassador>galaxy.
Constitution>.................................> Nova?

The Enterprises grew bigger with each generation and tended to be "the ship" of their time. The Nova has more in common with the Grissom than with a Constitution.
That sounds like you just followed the name lineage and not the design lineage.

Going from Constitution to Constitution-Upgrade is easy. Hull configuration stays the same with aesthetic changes.

From Constitution to Excelsior is where it breaks down. The configuration stays the same, but now the secondary hull including warp pylons are quite different. The warp pylons are bent 90 degrees lowering the nacelles to at or below the primary hull. The Excelsior is more the start of a new line than the continuation of the Constitution line. The Ambassador and Galaxy continue this design.

But if you look at the Nova class, she has more in common with the Constitution, straight nacelle pylons and warp nacelles above the primary hull. The Sovereign class would be more of a continuation of that line.

The Grissom class actually has more visually in common with the Defiant. Look at it from the top and the main hull's circular structure and aft section could form the basis of the Defiant hull. The Grissom like the Defiant also has both warp engines directly attached to the side of the ship.

Of course the Defiant has her unique engine cowlings and the Grissom has her underslung hull as defining characteristics. This goes back to Ziz's comment about a TOS-era Defiant-class which is what makes a ship say "Defiant"? Nacelles attached to the side of the ship just slightly below the primary hull could be a relative of the Centaur-class. But add those cowlings and <snap> it's a Defiant! (IMHO)

Last edited by blssdwlf; September 12 2012 at 09:12 AM.
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Old September 13 2012, 10:38 PM   #38
JES
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Re: TOS-era Defiant-class Ships

blssdwlf wrote: View Post

But if you look at the Nova class, she has more in common with the Constitution, straight nacelle pylons and warp nacelles above the primary hull. The Sovereign class would be more of a continuation of that line.
I think the main reason that the Sovereign class looks more like the Constitution is because her designer (John Eaves) took many cues from Matt Jefferies' design.

There are instances when a vessel's type/mission profiles determines her lineage, and not just her configuration.
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Old September 14 2012, 12:12 AM   #39
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS-era Defiant-class Ships

JES wrote: View Post
There are instances when a vessel's type/mission profiles determines her lineage, and not just her configuration.
I was responding purely from a design standpoint to Ziz's comment:
Ziz wrote: "I'd rather see something that looks conceptually like a TOS Defiant but not so literal to the DS9 version with the small details like the nacelle shrouds, rear profile, the greeblies on top/bottom."
My disagreement is that if you lose engine cowling (nacelle shrouds) you lose what makes the Defiant design a Defiant design. Pulling the Enterprise "evolution" would've worked if there were no other official ships to compare to, but since there are other ships with the same configuration and with unbent warp pylons it's alot harder to argue that the Excelsior "fits" in that lineage from a design standpoint, IMHO.

But if the question was re-phrased to the evolution of Fixed-Gun Escort type ships from TOS to DS9, then there is alot more room to maneuver in designs
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Old September 21 2012, 04:10 PM   #40
137th Gebirg
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Re: TOS-era Defiant-class Ships

There's this one from Rutger Warrink, going way back. Only top view, unfortunately.
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Old September 24 2012, 05:14 AM   #41
B.J.
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Re: TOS-era Defiant-class Ships

B.J. wrote: View Post
I prefer the version that inspired the one on those pages, the 2D one done by Rutger Warrink many years ago (top of this page).
137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
There's this one from Rutger Warrink, going way back. Only top view, unfortunately.
Is there an echo in here?
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Old September 24 2012, 05:50 AM   #42
sojourner
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Re: TOS-era Defiant-class Ships

LOLOL!
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