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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old September 11 2012, 02:27 AM   #211
NrobbieC
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

Mr_Homn suggested and you agreed that it didn't sound inclusive of transgendered humans. I don't see how, as I said there are likely transgendered individuals from many species. Data's phrasing is all-inclusive. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you meant.
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Old September 11 2012, 03:59 AM   #212
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

NrobbieC wrote: View Post
Mr_Homn suggested and you agreed that it didn't sound inclusive of transgendered humans. I don't see how, as I said there are likely transgendered individuals from many species. Data's phrasing is all-inclusive. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you meant.
To me, data's phrasing seems to imply that the only invited transgendered people are from non human species. As if either A.)transgendered humans do not exist or B.)they weren't invited. If I was transgendered I might be a little annoyed to be grouped as a non-human.

I get the feeling that the writer may have been trying to make the star trek universe seem more inclusive to LGBT viewers, but I think it was executed poorly due to the phrasing. Saying "ladies, gentlemen, and transgendered guests" would have been more inclusive and respectful. Too me the phrasing came off as a poor attempt at comic relief.
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Old September 11 2012, 04:19 AM   #213
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
NrobbieC wrote: View Post
Mr_Homn suggested and you agreed that it didn't sound inclusive of transgendered humans. I don't see how, as I said there are likely transgendered individuals from many species. Data's phrasing is all-inclusive. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you meant.
To me, data's phrasing seems to imply that the only invited transgendered people are from non human species. As if either A.)transgendered humans do not exist or B.)they weren't invited. If I was transgendered I might be a little annoyed to be grouped as a non-human.

I get the feeling that the writer may have been trying to make the star trek universe seem more inclusive to LGBT viewers, but I think it was executed poorly due to the phrasing. Saying "ladies, gentlemen, and transgendered guests" would have been more inclusive and respectful. But that would have meant one less data-comic-relief moment that they seemed to be unable to restrain themselves from on so many occasions.
Yes that would have been better, but I still don't think it necessarily excludes humans, because as as I said it's not an exclusive human thing (I would assume anyway). It does exclude beings with more than 2 sexes though, luckily there were no Andorians there.

It also never struck me that was meant to be a comic relief line, it felt out of place considering it followed Picard joking twice.
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Old September 11 2012, 04:24 AM   #214
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

I think the main reason Nemesis gets more hate than the other TNG films is that it is at least partly blamed for killing (or nearly killing) the franchise. Horrible box office and all that. I think another reason is that they didn't seem to learn from their mistakes from the previous three movies.

To me, Nemesis isn't any less stupid than any of the other TNG movies. They are all very contrived and sloppily written. The plots in all four movies require you to turn off your brain for large chunks. They all contain extremely out of character moments and stuff that seems to contradict what was established in the tv show. Most of the complaints aimed at Nemesis could be said of the other 3 TNG films as well.
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Old September 11 2012, 04:44 AM   #215
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

Personally I feel Nemesis is the weakest of TNG films but they're all superior to the TOS films.

First Contact is, for me, not only the best Trek film but also in my top 3 favourite films. Generations is the second best, I don't the understand the hate apart from overzealous Kirk fanboys. Insurrection by default comes third, it's alright but more like an episode than a film.

In a way, maybe Nemesis failing was a blessing in disguise that Justice League of Trek thing featuring all the captains or something I read about sounded dire and would've probably killed the franchise permanently.
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Old September 11 2012, 06:01 AM   #216
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

Nemesis is a crummy movie. Not a bad Star Trek movie, not a bad TNG movie, not a bad two-part episode,not a bad sci fi story-it is simply a crummy movie no matter how you dissect it.

The villian's action make no sense. How can the audience feel the tension of a situation if the bad guy's actions can't be remotely followed or understood?

Shinzon wants to blow up Earth. Why? Can any of you guys answer that question logically?

Shinzon first captures Picard, then wants to kill him. Why? Can any of you Nemesis fans justify the villain killing the only means to his survival?

Shinzon turns down Donatra's advances, then mind rapes Troi. Why? Can the logical explanation please stand up?

Starfleet sends a backup task force to Picard, which never shows up when the Enterprise drops off the grid. Not crossing the Neutral Zone is a moot point when the Enterprise is already being pursued by Romulan forces. Can I get logical answer please?

That's just a few of the plots various failures. Lets not discuss the cliche fight of Riker vs Viceroy in the infinite pit of the USS Enterprise's....something.

Kolarus III? That entire scene is so bad its like what a Micheal Bay movie would look without any explosions or hot women.

Nemesis is a sad movie , which is doubly awful considering the stellar episodes we've seen that same exact cast deliver in the series. Imagine the story of All Good Things with the budget of Nemesis-that's the potential which was lost to history when it came out.
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Old September 11 2012, 07:07 AM   #217
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

Silversmok3 wrote: View Post
Imagine the story of All Good Things with the budget of Nemesis-that's the potential which was lost to history when it came out.
At times I really wish that TNG had ended with the AGT finale, and the cast never went on to do the big dumb movies. It would have been better that way.
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Old September 11 2012, 07:28 AM   #218
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
NrobbieC wrote: View Post
Mr_Homn suggested and you agreed that it didn't sound inclusive of transgendered humans. I don't see how, as I said there are likely transgendered individuals from many species. Data's phrasing is all-inclusive. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you meant.
To me, data's phrasing seems to imply that the only invited transgendered people are from non human species. As if either A.)transgendered humans do not exist or B.)they weren't invited. If I was transgendered I might be a little annoyed to be grouped as a non-human.

I get the feeling that the writer may have been trying to make the star trek universe seem more inclusive to LGBT viewers, but I think it was executed poorly due to the phrasing. Saying "ladies, gentlemen, and transgendered guests" would have been more inclusive and respectful. Too me the phrasing came off as a poor attempt at comic relief.
He should have said, "Esteemed Beings.." and left it at that.
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Old September 11 2012, 09:24 AM   #219
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

Silversmok3 wrote: View Post
Nemesis is a crummy movie. Not a bad Star Trek movie, not a bad TNG movie, not a bad two-part episode,not a bad sci fi story-it is simply a crummy movie no matter how you dissect it.
The villian's action make no sense. How can the audience feel the tension of a situation if the bad guy's actions can't be remotely followed or understood?
Shinzon wants to get to know the man he was cloned after. Shnzon wants destroy Earth and expand the Romulan Empire with him as Prateor. This was shown in the movie between Hardy and Stewart's scenes.

Shinzon wants to blow up Earth. Why? Can any of you guys answer that question logically?
Destroying Earth would cripple Starfleet and make it easier to take over the Alpha and Beta Quadrant for the Romulans. Kill the head and the body will die. This was said repeatedly in the movie.


Shinzon first captures Picard, then wants to kill him. Why? Can any of you Nemesis fans justify the villain killing the only means to his survival?
For Shinzon it was about legitimatizing his existence. This was also stated in the movie. Shinzon says his life is meaningless while Picard is still alive. After a long dog fight that left both ships crippled. Shinzon decides to kill Picard with the Thalaron pulse. He states that "Some ideals are worth dying for aren't they Jean-Luc". Shinzon wanted destroy everything Picard stood for. By destroying Earth not only would Starfleet be weakend but the deeds of the man he was cloned after would be forgotten. No one would being singing the praises of Picard and all the heroic things he did in a galaxy dominated by the Romulans. While Shinzon's legacy throughout history would be that he was the man that brought down Earth and secured victory for the Romulan Star Empire in the Quadrant. In the same sense that Nero will always be remembered by the Vulcans of the XI timeline since he detroyed their planet and billions of Vulcan lives.


Shinzon turns down Donatra's advances, then mind rapes Troi. Why? Can the logical explanation please stand up?
Shinzon was a slave, and hates Romulans. It really is that simple. Sent to die by working in the mines of Remus for dilithium for hours everyday for years. While under the abuse of Romulan guards and then later sent to fight the Dominion for his Romulan oppressors. Kind of hard to be attracted to a woman of a race of people who have treated you like garbage all your life. While to audience Donatra is a hot and sexy piece of Romulan ass, to Shinzon she's not a woman. This is also said in the movie. Troi is admittedly not as hot as she was during the show but to Shinzon, a 25 year old human male who has only ever seen Romulan and Reman females, and most likely never been with a woman, he probably saw a milf in Troi. It was apparent he was enamored with her. Being young and having the needs of a man. Once again to us the audience Troi is definitely withered pastures but to Shinzon's she's the first woman he's attracted to.


Starfleet sends a backup task force to Picard, which never shows up when the Enterprise drops off the grid. Not crossing the Neutral Zone is a moot point when the Enterprise is already being pursued by Romulan forces. Can I get logical answer please?
BUDGET BUDGET BUDGET. In the script the final battle was going to feature a battle between a fleet of Romulan and Starfleet ships. Since the budget was limited they could only afford to have the 4 ships in the battle. Had they had the budget of XI, we could've gotten something truely awesome and epic.


That's just a few of the plots various failures. Lets not discuss the cliche fight of Riker vs Viceroy in the infinite pit of the USS Enterprise's....something.
I don't have a defense for this scene. Riker's place should've been on the bridge in case he needed to take over for Picard in the event of Picard's death.

Kolarus III? That entire scene is so bad its like what a Micheal Bay movie would look without any explosions or hot women.
I concept of the ARGO is interesting but in the film it's used as action movie fodder. While this isn't a bad thing, fans should remember what land travel in Trek was in the past. Beaming to one location, walking to wherever else you need go. The ARGO makes sense as a fast transport on terrain not uniform. Done correctly and with more depth and time and money we could get something grand like what Peter Jackson did with the LOTR movies and the wide and aerial shots of the scenery. Walking is cool and all but it really just shows that Starfleet is limited to runabout shuttles and starships. No cgi enviroments and cgi spaceships that show the terrain and landscapes of a planet like George Lucas does. Something that always bothered me is Starfleet's lack of fast ground transports This was painfully demonstrated during the Dominion War. Episodes such as Rocks and Shoals and Siege of AR-558, where the battle between the Jem'Hadar was waged on foot by two sects with laser guns. While I don't think Starfleet needs AT-ST walkers like the empire. Waging a war with two armies only using ships in space and not ground vehicles when it came to fighting on a planet's surface seemed impractical and unrealistic. Starfleet a primarily exploration institution should have ground transports of some kind.


Nemesis is a sad movie , which is doubly awful considering the stellar episodes we've seen that same exact cast deliver in the series. Imagine the story of All Good Things with the budget of Nemesis-that's the potential which was lost to history when it came out.
Yeah because the writers on the shows never made mistakes on the episodes in each season or movies. Ronald Moore and Brannon Braga penning All Good Things, but following that immediately with Generations that cluster fuck of a movie. They really screwed the pooch with that one. While they redeemed themselves with First Contact, GEN is still horrible. Michael Piller who wroter Yesterday's Enterpirse, Best of Both Worlds and helped launch DS9 wrote Insurrection which is worse then GEN.

Last edited by AllStarEntprise; September 11 2012 at 11:38 AM.
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Old September 11 2012, 09:47 AM   #220
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Yeah because the writers on the shows never made mistakes on the episodes in each season or movies. Ronald Moore and Brannon Braga penning All Good Things, but following that immediately with Generations that cluster fuck of a movie. They really screwed the pooch with that one. While they redeemed themselves with First Contact, GEN is still horrible. Michael Piller who wroter Yesterday's Enterpirse, Best of Both Worlds and helped launch DS9 wrote Insurrection which is worse then GEN.
The problem is that Paramount went with people so used to working on television. They can do a great episodes for a show, but they had a much harder time making a decent movie. All the Trek movies felt too small scale and not special enough.

That changed when Paramount went with a JJ Abrams, a director that knew how to do big budget movies. Even those that didn't like STXI have to admit that movie looked awesome.
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Old September 11 2012, 12:33 PM   #221
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

Dream wrote: View Post
That changed when Paramount went with a JJ Abrams, a director that knew how to do big budget movies. Even those that didn't like STXI have to admit that movie looked awesome.
Before Abrams, nobody was ever given a big budget to begin with.
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Old September 11 2012, 12:59 PM   #222
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

Robert Wise was.
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Old September 11 2012, 02:11 PM   #223
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Robert Wise was.
That's, like, 9 films with low budget, each of them feeding upon the sets and props created for the first film.
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Old September 11 2012, 06:28 PM   #224
Silversmok3
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Silversmok3 wrote: View Post
Nemesis is a crummy movie. Not a bad Star Trek movie, not a bad TNG movie, not a bad two-part episode,not a bad sci fi story-it is simply a crummy movie no matter how you dissect it.
The villian's action make no sense. How can the audience feel the tension of a situation if the bad guy's actions can't be remotely followed or understood?
Shinzon wants to get to know the man he was cloned after. Shnzon wants destroy Earth and expand the Romulan Empire with him as Prateor. This was shown in the movie between Hardy and Stewart's scenes.


Destroying Earth would cripple Starfleet and make it easier to take over the Alpha and Beta Quadrant for the Romulans. Kill the head and the body will die. This was said repeatedly in the movie.


For Shinzon it was about legitimatizing his existence. This was also stated in the movie. Shinzon says his life is meaningless while Picard is still alive. After a long dog fight that left both ships crippled. Shinzon decides to kill Picard with the Thalaron pulse. He states that "Some ideals are worth dying for aren't they Jean-Luc". Shinzon wanted destroy everything Picard stood for. By destroying Earth not only would Starfleet be weakend but the deeds of the man he was cloned after would be forgotten. No one would being singing the praises of Picard and all the heroic things he did in a galaxy dominated by the Romulans. While Shinzon's legacy throughout history would be that he was the man that brought down Earth and secured victory for the Romulan Star Empire in the Quadrant. In the same sense that Nero will always be remembered by the Vulcans of the XI timeline since he detroyed their planet and billions of Vulcan lives.


Shinzon was a slave, and hates Romulans. It really is that simple. Sent to die by working in the mines of Remus for dilithium for hours everyday for years. While under the abuse of Romulan guards and then later sent to fight the Dominion for his Romulan oppressors. Kind of hard to be attracted to a woman of a race of people who have treated you like garbage all your life. While to audience Donatra is a hot and sexy piece of Romulan ass, to Shinzon she's not a woman. This is also said in the movie. Troi is admittedly not as hot as she was during the show but to Shinzon, a 25 year old human male who has only ever seen Romulan and Reman females, and most likely never been with a woman, he probably saw a milf in Troi. It was apparent he was enamored with her. Being young and having the needs of a man. Once again to us the audience Troi is definitely withered pastures but to Shinzon's she's the first woman he's attracted to.


BUDGET BUDGET BUDGET. In the script the final battle was going to feature a battle between a fleet of Romulan and Starfleet ships. Since the budget was limited they could only afford to have the 4 ships in the battle. Had they had the budget of XI, we could've gotten something truely awesome and epic.



I don't have a defense for this scene. Riker's place should've been on the bridge in case he needed to take over for Picard in the event of Picard's death.

Kolarus III? That entire scene is so bad its like what a Micheal Bay movie would look without any explosions or hot women.
I concept of the ARGO is interesting but in the film it's used as action movie fodder. While this isn't a bad thing, fans should remember what land travel in Trek was in the past. Beaming to one location, walking to wherever else you need go. The ARGO makes sense as a fast transport on terrain not uniform. Done correctly and with more depth and time and money we could get something grand like what Peter Jackson did with the LOTR movies and the wide and aerial shots of the scenery. Walking is cool and all but it really just shows that Starfleet is limited to runabout shuttles and starships. No cgi enviroments and cgi spaceships that show the terrain and landscapes of a planet like George Lucas does. Something that always bothered me is Starfleet's lack of fast ground transports This was painfully demonstrated during the Dominion War. Episodes such as Rocks and Shoals and Siege of AR-558, where the battle between the Jem'Hadar was waged on foot by two sects with laser guns. While I don't think Starfleet needs AT-ST walkers like the empire. Waging a war with two armies only using ships in space and not ground vehicles when it came to fighting on a planet's surface seemed impractical and unrealistic. Starfleet a primarily exploration institution should have ground transports of some kind.


Nemesis is a sad movie , which is doubly awful considering the stellar episodes we've seen that same exact cast deliver in the series. Imagine the story of All Good Things with the budget of Nemesis-that's the potential which was lost to history when it came out.
Yeah because the writers on the shows never made mistakes on the episodes in each season or movies. Ronald Moore and Brannon Braga penning All Good Things, but following that immediately with Generations that cluster fuck of a movie. They really screwed the pooch with that one. While they redeemed themselves with First Contact, GEN is still horrible. Michael Piller who wroter Yesterday's Enterpirse, Best of Both Worlds and helped launch DS9 wrote Insurrection which is worse then GEN.

OK. Point 1: Why does Shinzon want to "get to know" a man he hates and will eventually kill? Crusher said that the blood procedure would probably kill Picard. Considering Shinzon had but a week to live,he'd be better served skipping the Romulan ale and biscuits.

Point 2estroying Earth would be bad news, to be sure. But destroy the Federation? That's like saying nuking Washington D.C. is going to destroy America. It wouldn't be a good thing , but there are other planets in the Federation besides Earth.

Point 3:Shinzon may hate Romulans, but he's a 25 year old man. As one myself, when I see a hot chick I see a hot chick. Political motivations don't come into things at all. As the events of Slavery prove, just because the object of your desires is a member of an oppressive caste doesn't mean biology ceases to matter. I daresay sleeping with Donatra made more sense from a political perspective too;ill bet she'll be much less likely to turn on a Praetor who rocks her world in the sack.

The alternative was using the Viceroy to mind rape a 40 year old woman. The ruler of all of the Romulan Empire,a guy who has females of the caste which oppressed him for so long just THROWING themselves at him, cant get his rocks off unless hes mentally raping a 40 year old counselor.

I could stop right here, but ill mention the Argo. Starfleet has transporters. They literally do not need a wheeled vehicle for anything. They may as well have stuck a horse n Buggy in the back of the shuttle, for all the purposes the wheeled ARGO served.

If a Starfleet member needs to travel-combadge-> "TRANSPORTER ROOM, BEAM ME HERE--> *special effect*--> bam.
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Old September 11 2012, 06:34 PM   #225
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Re: Why is Nemesis hated so much?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post
That changed when Paramount went with a JJ Abrams, a director that knew how to do big budget movies. Even those that didn't like STXI have to admit that movie looked awesome.
Before Abrams, nobody was ever given a big budget to begin with.
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Robert Wise was.
That's, like, 9 films with low budget, each of them feeding upon the sets and props created for the first film.
Agree. Budget restrictions compared to other films.
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