Product placement

[Christopher]

Mr_Homn wrote:

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Almost all of those references to money dealt with outsiders of the federation.

Actually, no -- I specifically picked mentions that were pertaining to the Federation. Many of them pertain to the Enterprise crew itself. You're just deliberately rationalizing them away because they don't fit your prejudices, and that's improper reasoning.

Kirk telling Scotty he earned his pay was most likely an expression, a vestigial idiom.

"Most likely" based on what evidence? All the evidence you have a moneyless society comes from a century after the time frame we're talking about. There is only a single piece of evidence, Kirk's line in TVH, that even hints at a lack of money in the 23rd century, and quite a lot of evidence that money and commerce are still taken for granted in that time. A lot can change in a hundred years, so it's very unwise to try to draw conclusions about the 23rd century based on evidence that comes almost exclusively from the 24th.

As you pointed out, Kirk clearly says they don't use money in the 23rd century, so even if the no money thing wasn't planned from the beginning, it was retconned. Federation doesn't use money in the 23rd century.

That's sloppy reasoning, and if you tried anything like it in a history class, you'd get an F. You just can't make an assumption like that based on one uncorroborated data point. As I said, in the context of the evidence we have, it's far more likely that he was talking about not using currency.

The thing is, you're looking back on this based on the assumptions introduced by the ST of the '80s and '90s. You're used to the idea of "Federation = moneyless" and that assumption is coloring your perception of TOS. But I grew up with TOS in the '70s, and I can assure you that prior to TVH's release in 1986, there was never any question that the Federation was a money-based society. And there's no good reason not to accept that that was the case. Trying to rationalize away all the monetary references as you've done is overly convoluted and unnecessary, and some of your rationalizations are rather implausible. Accepting that there was money only requires rationalizing away a single reference, the TVH line, and there's a very plausible fix for that, since many people actually do equate the term "money" with physical currency (and since the conversation in the restaurant was specifically in reference to money as physical currency). By Occam's Razor, the more likely interpretation is the one that requires the fewest ad hoc speculations -- in this case, the fewest and simplest rationalizations. And that means the more likely interpretation is that there was still money in the 2260s.

I think it's quite likely that all those corporations would cease to exist after World War III kills 600 million people and many of the planets major governments and cities have been completely destroyed. I mean do you really expect me to believe that pretty much every world government is destroyed, along with their economies, but somehow Nokia survives and is still selling outdated cell phones in the 23rd century?

Okay, talk about your ad hoc assumptions. Where did you get the idea that the destruction was so wholesale? We've seen that San Francisco and Paris are still intact, and heard reference to numerous other Earth cities surviving, such as New York, Moscow, Kyoto, Brussels, Brisbane, Dakar, Lisbon, and Rome. And the nations and societies don't seem too different post-WWIII -- there's still a France, an England, an Ireland, a Russia, a Japan, a Canada, a United States (though that's part of "NorthAm" by the 24th century), etc.

Anyway, the Memory Alpha article says only that many cities and governments were destroyed. How do you get from "many" to "pretty much every?" You're not interpreting the evidence accurately, and there's plenty of evidence that contradicts your rather odd interpretation. Clearly most of the culture we know survived intact into the Trek era. In addition to all the mentions of familiar cities and countries, the cultures are recognizable and the characters still have plenty of knowledge of the popular culture, literature, fashions, music, etc. of earlier times. If all of that survived, it's really rather contradictory to assume that somehow corporations in particular managed to get exterminated en masse.

So WWIII pretty much had to be a limited nuclear war -- otherwise humanity wouldn't have survived at all. The destruction had to be targeted and limited. Now, Nokia, for what it's worth, is a Finnish company. Does it really seem likely to you that Finland, which is considered one of the most peaceful countries on Earth, would've been targeted for annihilation in a nuclear conflict?

As for that "outdated cell phones" reference, as I already mentioned, it falls apart on the basis of the fact that the commpanel we saw was in an antique car from the 1960s.

[Greg Cox]

Plus, there's the fact that TVH is a comedy so maybe that line was just there for a laugh and shouldn't be taken quite so seriously . . . .

[Mr_Homn]

Christopher wrote:

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Actually, no -- I specifically picked mentions that were pertaining to the Federation. Many of them pertain to the Enterprise crew itself. You're just deliberately rationalizing them away because they don't fit your prejudices, and that's improper reasoning.

No you didn't. Some pertained to the federation, which I addressed, but most didn't. The others dealt with outsiders.

Christopher wrote:

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"Most likely" based on what evidence? All the evidence you have a moneyless society comes from a century after the time frame we're talking about. There is only a single piece of evidence, Kirk's line in TVH, that even hints at a lack of money in the 23rd century, and quite a lot of evidence that money and commerce are still taken for granted in that time.

Based on the fact that he uses vestigial idioms all the time. "Mind the store" being a popular one. I already pointed this out.

What's this about "hinting"? He doesn't hint at it. He outright says it. "We don't".

That's sloppy reasoning, and if you tried anything like it in a history class, you'd get an F. You just can't make an assumption like that based on one uncorroborated data point. As I said, in the context of the evidence we have, it's far more likely that he was talking about not using currency.

Lol, history class? what are you on about? It was retconned. Sorry it upset you so much, but it clearly was.

The thing is, you're looking back on this based on the assumptions introduced by the ST of the '80s and '90s. You're used to the idea of "Federation = moneyless" and that assumption is coloring your perception of TOS. But I grew up with TOS in the '70s, and I can assure you that prior to TVH's release in 1986, there was never any question that the Federation was a money-based society. And there's no good reason not to accept that that was the case.

Yeah, I'm aware it wasn't planned that way from the beginning. As I already said, Gene Roddenberry retconned this idea.

The Original Series also suggests that the federation has an agreed upon religion, and that women can't command starships. A lot of it's inconsistent details can be glossed over to make the star trek universe consistent.

Okay, talk about your ad hoc assumptions. Where did you get the idea that the destruction was so wholesale? We've seen that San Francisco and Paris are still intact, and heard reference to numerous other Earth cities surviving, such as New York, Moscow, Kyoto, Brussels, Brisbane, Dakar, Lisbon, and Rome. And the nations and societies don't seem too different post-WWIII -- there's still a France, an England, an Ireland, a Russia, a Japan, a Canada, a United States (though that's part of "NorthAm" by the 24th century), etc.

We've seen a few monuments still intact. That's it. That's not government. Not sure what you're talking about when you bring up New York, Moscow, Kyoto, Brussels, etc. Care to explain? I doubt there is any evidence either way as to whether they survived or were rebuilt.

Anyway, the Memory Alpha article says only that many cities and governments were destroyed. How do you get from "many" to "pretty much every?"

Well, for one, I watched the movie. Maybe you should try it?

RIKER: Makes sense. Most of the major cities have been destroyed. There are few governments left. Six hundred million dead. No resistance.

Who get's the F?

With fact checking like that, no wonder fan fiction gets such a bad rep.

[Nerys Myk]

Riker, probably.

[Mr_Homn]

Nerys Myk wrote:

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Riker, probably.

Nice

[Greg Cox]

Mr_Homn wrote:

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Yeah, and as I already said, Gene Roddenberry clearly retconned this idea. No money in the 23rd century. Kirk said it.

Actually, I'm not sure Roddenberry had anything to do with that line. Chances were, Nicholas Meyer wrote it . . . and Roddenberry didn't have any say over the movies at that point.

And, like I said, TVH is a light-hearted romp. It's one of my favorite Trek movies, but I'm not sure I'd take it as the definitive statement on 23rd century society!

[Mr_Homn]

Greg Cox wrote:

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Actually, I'm not sure Roddenberry had anything to do with that line. Chances were, Nicholas Meyer wrote it . . . and Roddenberry didn't have any say over the movies at that point.

Hm, well not sure who's responsible for the line in the movie, but it's certainly consistent with Roddenberry's ideas.

Greg Cox wrote:

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And, like I said, TVH is a light-hearted romp. It's one of my favorite Trek movies, but I'm not sure I'd take it as the definitive statement on 23rd century society!

Eh, I don't think that just because it has comedic value makes it any less of an authority. All of the TOS movies had a significant amount of humor (Well maybe except the first one)

[Nerys Myk]

I've always assumed that by "money" Kirk was referring to the paper and metal form of currency rather than non physical credits he's used to

[Christopher]

Mr_Homn wrote:

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No you didn't. Some pertained to the federation, which I addressed, but most didn't. The others dealt with outsiders.

That is not a fact, that is your assumption. There is no evidence that Harry and Cyrano were not Federation citizens. Carter Winston clearly was a well-respected Federation citizen -- hell, he was engaged to marry a Starfleet officer! And of course Kirk, Spock, and Scotty are UFP citizens, and the majority of my examples pertained to them.

Based on the fact that he uses vestigial idioms all the time. "Mind the store" being a popular one. I already pointed this out.

That doesn't prove anything in and of itself. I'm sure you've used archaic expressions like "going off half-cocked" or "loose cannon," but that doesn't mean that I can assume any random thing you say is only a figure of speech. Not without further evidence.

Lol, history class? what are you on about? It was retconned. Sorry it upset you so much, but it clearly was.

Okay, your replies are just getting more and more obnoxious. Just because it's your opinion, that doesn't make it an inviolable fact of nature. The people whose opinions can be trusted are the people who are honest enough to admit they can be wrong and to check and question their own assumptions, rather than just shooting down everyone else's out of hand.

The Original Series also suggests that the federation has an agreed upon religion. A lot of it's inconsistent details can be glossed over to make the star trek universe consistent.

Who the hell said they had an "agreed-upon religion?" They never said that. They showed that several members of the Enterprise crew seemed to believe in a deity. That doesn't show it was a state religion or whatever the hell you mean by that odd phrase, just that those individuals believed it. And we certainly don't know that there aren't individual believers in the 24th century as well. You're alleging an "inconsistency" that doesn't exist, that could simply be a difference in emphasis. At most, the difference could be explained by the fact that we're discussing two different centuries. As I already mentioned, a society can change a lot in a hundred years. So there is no inconsistency here.

Not sure what you're talking about when you bring up New York, Moscow, Kyoto, Brussels, etc. Care to explain?

Trip Tucker said that 1940s New York City was not like the one he knew. Chekov mentioned being familiar with Moscow. Hoshi Sato was born in Kyoto and had a pen pal from Brisbane. Devinoni Ral was born in Brussels. Dr. Paul Stubbs once observed nanite production in Dakar. Lisbon was where Admiral Leyton sent Red Squad to sabotage the global power grid. Dr. Phlox attended Mass at St. Peter's Square in the Vatican, an enclave within Rome.

Who get's the F?

With fact checking like that, no wonder fan fiction gets such a bad rep.

Says the guy who can't be bothered to check Memory Alpha to find out what all my city references were about. If you're going to be this childish and rude, I won't continue the conversation.

[Mr_Homn]

Even if there was some sort of currency used within the federation in the 23rd century, there's nothing indicating outright that federation citizens used it for personal gain or use. It's clear that currencies were used when dealing with outsiders though.

The idea of current day cell phone and beer companies surviving world war III when most major cities and governments have been destroyed/dismantled? I don't buy it. It makes no sense.

Christopher wrote:

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Says the guy who can't be bothered to check Memory Alpha to find out what all my city references were about. If you're going to be this childish and rude, I won't continue the conversation.

Hilarious. You were the one telling me I would fail history classes and insulting my reasoning skills. Extremely condescending. I responded in kind. Pot calling the kettle black, always amusing.

I'm not going to bend over searching for all these obscure references that probably don't hold water anyway. Explain your argument, don't just randomly list cities and expect me to do the work for you.

Riker said most major cities were destroyed, and few governments survived. I think the situation was pretty clearly stated.

Who the hell said they had an "agreed-upon religion?" They never said that.

"Mankind has no need for gods. We find the One quite adequate."

I said it was implied. Obviously not an idea that was held onto, much like the idea of money being widely used in the federation. Lots of TOS ideas like that were scrapped. Like Women not being allowed to fly a starship.

Trip Tucker said that 1940s New York City was not like the one he knew. Chekov mentioned being familiar with Moscow. Hoshi Sato was born in Kyoto and had a pen pal from Brisbane. Devinoni Ral was born in Brussels. Dr. Paul Stubbs once observed nanite production in Dakar. Lisbon was where Admiral Leyton sent Red Squad to sabotage the global power grid. Dr. Phlox attended Mass at St. Peter's Square in the Vatican, an enclave within Rome.

As I thought, none of this proves anything you were pushing. There's no explanation offered, and since Riker said most major cities were destroyed, it's safe to assume much of them were re-built as well, as a symbol of human endurance. If anything it helps my argument. Trip not recognizing 1940s new york? 1940s new york doesn't look incredibly different from today's new york. Surely it would be recognizable to him... unless it was completely destroyed and later rebuilt.

Also, Devonani Ral born in Brussels? What the hell? That was never stated in the episode. That is not canon. You are not being intellectually honest now.

Looked it up, and it was in the script but never filmed. If you are counting that kind of stuff, then it only adds weight to my argument.

From First Contact script:

Regional wars, the collapse of the United Nations. Societal break-down. Crime, starvation, desperation. -- A Third World War. Nuclear explosions, environmental disasters, tens of millions dead. The United States ceases to exist. All political authority vanishes. Humanity teetering on the edge of the Second Dark Age.


obviously, though, script notes do not count, or I would have already brought that into the argument. If it isn't on screen, it isn't canon.

[Christopher]

Mr_Homn wrote:

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Even if there was some sort of currency used within the federation in the 23rd century, there's nothing indicating outright that federation citizens used it for personal gain or use.

Again, you're falsely assuming it's proven that Harry and Cyrano somehow weren't Federation citizens. There is no reason to assume that, except that you don't want them to be Federation citizens because it would prove your assumption wrong. It's completely circular reasoning.

The idea of current day cell phone and beer companies surviving world war III when most major cities and governments have been destroyed/dismantled? I don't buy it. It makes no sense.

It makes just as much sense as the fact that so many familiar cities, nations, societies, and pieces of cultural heritage survive intact after WWIII despite what Riker claimed in FC. Maybe Riker just exaggerated. Again, one should go with the preponderance of evidence. You can't just ignore a whole pile of evidence in favor of one outlying data point that contradicts all the rest.

[Greg Cox]

Christopher wrote:

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Trip Tucker said that 1940s New York City was not like the one he knew. Chekov mentioned being familiar with Moscow. Hoshi Sato was born in Kyoto and had a pen pal from Brisbane. Devinoni Ral was born in Brussels. Dr. Paul Stubbs once observed nanite production in Dakar. Lisbon was where Admiral Leyton sent Red Squad to sabotage the global power grid. Dr. Phlox attended Mass at St. Peter's Square in the Vatican, an enclave within Rome.
.

Just off the top of my head, I can recall references to Paris, Leningrad, and Cambridge University as well (regarding Picard, Chekov, and Data, respectively).

In general, I'm leery of applying TNG assumptions to TOS . . . or the new movie. The way I see it, the new movie was primarily based on classic STAR TREK, as opposed to the later spin-offs, so I'm not really sure why we're talking about TNG-era concepts at all.

[Mr_Homn]

Christopher wrote:

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Again, you're falsely assuming it's proven that Harry and Cyrano somehow weren't Federation citizens. There is no reason to assume that, except that you don't want them to be Federation citizens because it would prove your assumption wrong. It's completely circular reasoning.

I'm not assuming whether they are citizens either way. You are assuming they ARE citizens. I am saying they obviously deal with non-feds every day, by the very nature of their business. Harry Mudd was a criminal smuggler, he's obviously in league with plenty of shady types. Cyrano is a con man, same thing. They would need money to deal with these folks.

It makes just as much sense as the fact that so many familiar cities, nations, societies, and pieces of cultural heritage survive intact after WWIII despite what Riker claimed in FC. Maybe Riker just exaggerated. Again, one should go with the preponderance of evidence. You can't just ignore a whole pile of evidence in favor of one outlying data point that contradicts all the rest.

Now riker exaggerated. who exactly is twisting the facts to fit their view? lol

Not the same thing at all. It's not like Riker said the cities were completely OBLITERATED with NOTHING left. The important parts were destroyed. Some monuments survived, some art survived, etc. A lot of it would likely be rebuilt. Not unrealistic at all.

Cell phone companies and other major corporations surviving in a world where the economy and most governments are non existent for 30+ years? That's pretty ridiculous.

Greg Cox wrote:

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Just off the top of my head, I can recall references to Paris, Leningrad, and Cambridge University as well (regarding Picard, Chekov, and Data, respectively).

In general, I'm leery of applying TNG assumptions to TOS . . . or the new movie. The way I see it, the new movie was primarily based on classic STAR TREK, as opposed to the later spin-offs, so I'm not really sure why we're talking about TNG-era concepts at all.

Those references don't really say much though. The cities may exist in the 23rd and 24th century again, but from what riker says, they were in shambles at one point. They must have been rebuilt. Now, the non major cities, and who is to say what that is, might never have been seriously damaged.

As far as tng-era concepts... We are talking about star trek canon. This is pre TOS history according to the canon. World war III had serious effects, and it seems largely ignored in nutrek. It would appear that there WAS no world war 3 at all if these present day corporations are still fine and dandy in the 23rd century. If it had been a hard reboot, it wouldn't matter. But they decided to connect Nutrek to the old universe. they can't have it both ways. (well, obviously they can, and they did, but i'm still gonna call B.S. when i see it )

I wish it was a hard reboot, but they decided to take on all the historical baggage of pre-kirk. But they largely ignored it.

[Greg Cox]

Mr_Homn wrote:

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As far as tng-era concepts... We are talking about star trek canon. This is pre TOS history according to the canon. World war III had serious effects, and it seems largely ignored in nutrek. It would appear that there WAS no world war 3 at all if these present day corporations are still fine and dandy in the 23rd century. If it had been a hard reboot, it wouldn't matter. But they decided to connect Nutrek to the old universe. they can't have it both ways. (well, obviously they can, and they did, but i'm still gonna call B.S. when i see it )

I wish it was a hard reboot, but they decided to take on all the historical baggage of pre-kirk. But they largely ignored it.

Well, I wasn't really thinking about the product placement bit anymore, which I barely noticed when watching the movie. I was mostly objecting to the idea of trying to impose some sort of utopian moneyless society on TOS and the new movie, which always struck me as more of a TNG thing.

TOS was always more about the rough-and-tumble final frontier . . . .

[Mr_Homn]

Greg Cox wrote:

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I was mostly objecting to the idea of trying to impose some sort of utopian moneyless society on TOS and the new movie, which always struck me as more of a TNG thing.

TOS was always more about the rough-and-tumble final frontier . . . .

I love TOS, but a lot of stuff was retconned.

Does anyone really buy that women can't captain a starship in the 23rd century? Of course not, so this is largely forgotten and retconned.

The appearance of Klingons was explained in Enterprise. So now we are to believe that all those TOS klingons were actually descendents of plague victims. That obviously wasn't the intention in 1966. Retconned.

Early Trek episodes refer to Earth ships, Earth bases, Earth outposts. The agency the Enterprise works for is the United Earth Space Probe Agency. Then in "Court Martial" UESPA becomes Starfleet and in "A Taste of Armageddon" Earth is replaced with Federation. TOS retconned itself on this one. Enterprise made an effort to explain it later, though.

Vulcan having no Moons? Retconned

The whole "We have no use for gods. The one is enough" thing... I don't think anyone would argue that the federation or humans all agree that there is one god. Retconned

The Squire Of Gothos containing dialogue placing the show 700 years in the future instead of the 23rd century. Retconned...

There are more, but I don't feel like going on and on.

It seems to me that the money existing in the 23rd century issue was just another retcon, since Kirk said they don't use it.

Now, I guess if you want to turn this around on me, you can say that Nutrek is retconning a lot of stuff too, and thats why these companies can still exist. But if they went through the trouble of connecting their universe to the same past of the old universe, why ignore all the history? It should have been a hard reboot so this kind of stuff could be avoided. They had a chance to clean the slate, but they didn't.