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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Battlestar Galactica & Caprica

Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

 
 
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Old September 9 2012, 10:47 PM   #31
Mars
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

sonak wrote: View Post
Dark Gilligan wrote: View Post
Religion was part of nuBSG from the very beginning. In the pilot episode Six explicitly tells Baltar that the Cylons are following God's plan. Baltar scoffed that Six would believe in something as primitive as religion. Later, when Head!Six first appeared, she tells Baltar she's one of God's messengers. Also in Season 1, Starbuck herself was linked to Aurora, the angel who would guide humanity to its new home. The series remained true to this philosophy throughout.

these things were there, but could have gone the route that Trek often did, where there were naturalistic(albeit far-fetched) explanations for various things. Or they could have been proven to be not there altogether. In the latter half of the series though, those themes dominate the show, and it becomes more and more literal regarding religion. By the end, it really WAS all part of "God's" plan.


It's like I said with DS9- the "prophets" were just background wormhole aliens in the first few seasons, before they began to resemble literal Bajoran gods more and more, even giving Sisko a divine birth, and fighting "fallen demons" in caves. One of the reasons I prefer early-to mid DS9 over late DS9.



Gods make poor drama for the most part-they turn mortal characters into puppets.
Star Trek always has someone "behind the curtain" playing the part of God. A God is never just a God, there is some technical explanation behind it. In Battlestar Galatica there is just God, and he can reach back in time several billion years and create another Earth on demand when Kara plugs in the coordinates to the BSG jump drive for the last time. I guess you don't like science fiction stories that have God in it, not an alien playing the part of God for some ignorant savages that don't know what their worshiping, but an actual God, that is just too much.

In Star Trek it is never just God or an Angel, somebody is always playing a trick on some superstitious fool.
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Old September 10 2012, 12:11 AM   #32
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Mars wrote: View Post
In Battlestar Galatica there is just God, and he can reach back in time several billion years and create another Earth on demand when Kara plugs in the coordinates to the BSG jump drive for the last time.
I'm not sure if you're being rhetorical, or what, but just for the record, this didn't happen. Earth—the real Earth—was established as existing at the climax of season three in "Crossroads, Part 2," in the zoom shot on the galaxy.

Also, there is a matter of interpretation, as it is an open question exactly who or what God is in nuBSG. It is true, and I will agree on this point, that God is a mystery. That much, and more, is certainly in common with what people in real life consider God to be. However, at the series climax in "Daybreak, Part 2," words are attributed to the being known as God by Head Baltar, that God doesn't like the name God, which would seem to be at odds with the Judeo-Christian God.
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Old September 10 2012, 12:37 AM   #33
sonak
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Mars wrote: View Post
In Battlestar Galatica there is just God, and he can reach back in time several billion years and create another Earth on demand when Kara plugs in the coordinates to the BSG jump drive for the last time.
I'm not sure if you're being rhetorical, or what, but just for the record, this didn't happen. Earth—the real Earth—was established as existing at the climax of season three in "Crossroads, Part 2," in the zoom shot on the galaxy.

Also, there is a matter of interpretation, as it is an open question exactly who or what God is in nuBSG. It is true, and I will agree on this point, that God is a mystery. That much, and more, is certainly in common with what people in real life consider God to be. However, at the series climax in "Daybreak, Part 2," words are attributed to the being known as God by Head Baltar, that God doesn't like the name God, which would seem to be at odds with the Judeo-Christian God.

yes, the nature of the BSG god is kept mysterious, but it is still shown that it is basically pulling all the strings, and has been from day one. It's kind of like Oedipis Rex I guess, which I also didn't like. Again, if the story is "Human puppets get moved around like chess pieces by God," it's just not that interesting as drama to me.Which is not to say that I have an issue with subtle religious themes in entertainment, but blatant "God did it" stories I do have an issue with.
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Old September 10 2012, 02:35 AM   #34
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

sonak wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Mars wrote: View Post
In Battlestar Galatica there is just God, and he can reach back in time several billion years and create another Earth on demand when Kara plugs in the coordinates to the BSG jump drive for the last time.
I'm not sure if you're being rhetorical, or what, but just for the record, this didn't happen. Earth—the real Earth—was established as existing at the climax of season three in "Crossroads, Part 2," in the zoom shot on the galaxy.

Also, there is a matter of interpretation, as it is an open question exactly who or what God is in nuBSG. It is true, and I will agree on this point, that God is a mystery. That much, and more, is certainly in common with what people in real life consider God to be. However, at the series climax in "Daybreak, Part 2," words are attributed to the being known as God by Head Baltar, that God doesn't like the name God, which would seem to be at odds with the Judeo-Christian God.

yes, the nature of the BSG god is kept mysterious, but it is still shown that it is basically pulling all the strings, and has been from day one. It's kind of like Oedipis Rex I guess, which I also didn't like. Again, if the story is "Human puppets get moved around like chess pieces by God," it's just not that interesting as drama to me.Which is not to say that I have an issue with subtle religious themes in entertainment, but blatant "God did it" stories I do have an issue with.
But with 90%+ of Series resulting in being God explained away as "Superior Intelligence/Alien", don't you need this 10% or less in order to maintain your disbelief it might not end with being explained away? If there's no possible way a story could ever end with a real unexplained "God", doesn't that take some of the mystery out of it?
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Old September 10 2012, 02:43 AM   #35
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Personally, I thought the mystery in that regard was one of the show's strengths, and among its positive contributions to the sci-fi genre. And here I go getting sucked into discussing the merits of the show!
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Old September 10 2012, 03:20 AM   #36
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Sindatur wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

I'm not sure if you're being rhetorical, or what, but just for the record, this didn't happen. Earth—the real Earth—was established as existing at the climax of season three in "Crossroads, Part 2," in the zoom shot on the galaxy.
Good point, so God reached out back in time billions of years and created this Earth for the benefit of the Audience to see, rather than the show's characters just a little Earlier. God could probably anticipate the need for it later in the show, as the Cylon Earth would prove to be a disappointment.

Also, there is a matter of interpretation, as it is an open question exactly who or what God is in nuBSG. It is true, and I will agree on this point, that God is a mystery. That much, and more, is certainly in common with what people in real life consider God to be. However, at the series climax in "Daybreak, Part 2," words are attributed to the being known as God by Head Baltar, that God doesn't like the name God, which would seem to be at odds with the Judeo-Christian God.
Beware of the head Baltar, he seems to be playing the role of the Devil in this one. I don't know exactly which phase your talking about, I think your referring to when he is talking to Six in Manhattan 150,000 years later.

yes, the nature of the BSG god is kept mysterious, but it is still shown that it is basically pulling all the strings, and has been from day one. It's kind of like Oedipis Rex I guess, which I also didn't like. Again, if the story is "Human puppets get moved around like chess pieces by God," it's just not that interesting as drama to me.Which is not to say that I have an issue with subtle religious themes in entertainment, but blatant "God did it" stories I do have an issue with.
So it appears you share the attitude of Baltar before he got "converted". Well how else can your explain Another Earth complete with evolutionary history? Apparently in this Universe Humans evolved on two planets Kobol and this newly created Earth, and they are the exact same species too. It really is hard to explain the whole BSG assumptions without going through contortions with ancient astronaut conspiracies and the like.

But with 90%+ of Series resulting in being God explained away as "Superior Intelligence/Alien", don't you need this 10% or less in order to maintain your disbelief it might not end with being explained away? If there's no possible way a story could ever end with a real unexplained "God", doesn't that take some of the mystery out of it?
Yes, the "alien as god" mythos has been so over done in shows like Star Trek for instance, where we have beings like Apollo as a kind of alien and so forth.
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Old September 10 2012, 03:26 AM   #37
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Personally, I thought the mystery in that regard was one of the show's strengths, and among its positive contributions to the sci-fi genre. And here I go getting sucked into discussing the merits of the show!
Battlestar Galactica is an inherently conservative show, it is hard to get away from that fact. It is conservative in many ways, it is conservative in its technological assumptions, it is conservative in its philosophy on mankind, on war, and on religion. Most sci fi shows lean towards the athiest liberal audience, BSG goes the other way, sort of in the C.S. Lewis tradition.
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Old September 10 2012, 07:57 AM   #38
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Mars wrote: View Post
Hitler was elected Chancellor in 1932, ...
Nope, he was appointed by the president and his party only had around 33% of the votes when that happened. 33% is a lot but it's factually wrong to claim that Hitler was elected.
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Old September 10 2012, 09:01 AM   #39
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Very good post sonak, I don't think I could argue against any of it.
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Old September 10 2012, 10:33 AM   #40
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Ditto. But I have found it rewatchable. Just left a long enough gap for individual episodes to dim.
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Old September 10 2012, 11:37 AM   #41
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Takeru wrote: View Post
Mars wrote: View Post
Hitler was elected Chancellor in 1932, ...
Nope, he was appointed by the president and his party only had around 33% of the votes when that happened. 33% is a lot but it's factually wrong to claim that Hitler was elected.
In the United States, its possible for someone to be elected with more than a third of the vote if there are three major candidates, having an actual majority is not a requirement, a plurality is what's required, it just so happens that with a 2 party system that we have now a plurality is usually also a majority. Under the US Constitution the candidate with the most votes wins. Not sure what the German constitution said back then, I suppose a coalition government was required if all parties failed to get a majority.
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Old September 10 2012, 03:26 PM   #42
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

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Not sure what the German constitution said back then, I suppose a coalition government was required if all parties failed to get a majority.
That's the problem, it wasn't and that's one of the reasons the Weimar Republic failed. The people elected the Reichstag but the Chancellor was appointed by the president. In theory the president would appoint a chancellor who was supported by a majority of the Reichtag, in reality that didn't work at all and Germany had a revolving door of chancellors. Government after government failed because the chancellors were unable to get a stable coalition to work in the parliament.

Hitler never had a majority, not with the people or within the Reichtag, during the first year of his reign he was scared shitless of Hindenburg (the president) because he could have kicked him out of office any time he wanted. It was only after Hindenburg's death that Hitler was able to merge the offices of chancellor and president and really take over.

The constitution was pretty fucked up and it was a deliberate decision for today's germany to have the chancellor elected by the parliament (not by the people!) to ensure a government backed by a majority. The members of the parliament can simply elect a new one anytime they want
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Old September 10 2012, 03:31 PM   #43
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Mars wrote: View Post
Takeru wrote: View Post
Mars wrote: View Post
Hitler was elected Chancellor in 1932, ...
Nope, he was appointed by the president and his party only had around 33% of the votes when that happened. 33% is a lot but it's factually wrong to claim that Hitler was elected.
In the United States, its possible for someone to be elected with more than a third of the vote if there are three major candidates, having an actual majority is not a requirement, a plurality is what's required, it just so happens that with a 2 party system that we have now a plurality is usually also a majority. Under the US Constitution the candidate with the most votes wins. Not sure what the German constitution said back then, I suppose a coalition government was required if all parties failed to get a majority.

It's often pointed out that the NSDAP never got more than 37% of the vote as if it's hugely significant that they didn't get 50.1%. But as you say, in a multi-party parliamentary system getting an actual majority is a rare and often unnecessary thing. They were still the largest party in 1932 after both the July and Nov. elections. That aside though, yes, Hitler was never actually elected president or chancellor, he was appointed to chancellor as part of a back-room deal to bring stability.
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Old September 10 2012, 05:51 PM   #44
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

Mars wrote: View Post
In Star Trek it is never just God or an Angel, somebody is always playing a trick on some superstitious fool.
There's a reason for this. Gene Roddenberry didn't believe in religion. He was sure that by the time of Star Trek, humanity would have evolved beyond its need for religious belief. That's why gods and belief systems in his stories were always proven to be false.

In the BSG universe, religion is real. God is real. The nature of God is left a mystery (is the Cylon God a vast artificial intelligence, manipulating events throughout time to ensure its own creation?), but a mystery doesn't mean its false.
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Last edited by Dark Gilligan; September 10 2012 at 06:02 PM.
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Old September 10 2012, 06:30 PM   #45
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Re: My rambling thoughts on BSG after a full series run-through

sonak wrote: View Post
Mars wrote: View Post
Takeru wrote: View Post
Nope, he was appointed by the president and his party only had around 33% of the votes when that happened. 33% is a lot but it's factually wrong to claim that Hitler was elected.
In the United States, its possible for someone to be elected with more than a third of the vote if there are three major candidates, having an actual majority is not a requirement, a plurality is what's required, it just so happens that with a 2 party system that we have now a plurality is usually also a majority. Under the US Constitution the candidate with the most votes wins. Not sure what the German constitution said back then, I suppose a coalition government was required if all parties failed to get a majority.

It's often pointed out that the NSDAP never got more than 37% of the vote as if it's hugely significant that they didn't get 50.1%. But as you say, in a multi-party parliamentary system getting an actual majority is a rare and often unnecessary thing. They were still the largest party in 1932 after both the July and Nov. elections. That aside though, yes, Hitler was never actually elected president or chancellor, he was appointed to chancellor as part of a back-room deal to bring stability.
Then the German people made a bad decision by giving Hitler 37% of the vote, and the President made a bad decision by appointing him Chancellor. One of the reasons I don't like Parlimentary Democracy is its tendency to obsfucate accountability. The Germans could say, "It wasn't our fault, we just gave him 37% of the vote." The President could say, he had to appoint Hitler as he was the only possible chancellor. Some German Generals did plot a coup against Hitler, You may have heard of it perhaps Operation Valkrie, the main problem is the Generals waited too long before attempting this, long after Hitler cemented power.
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