I want Data back... - Page 6

NrobbieC · September 9 2012, 09:07 PM

Equally the theory B-4 could evolve like Data was unfounded, Picard just assumed it.

I suppose you could, but it's a little more extreme. Also it's very different when it comes to people.
I think a good equivalent is those labour holograms from Flesh and Blood, they had no potential to be more than interactive humanoid-shaped tools. They weren't people nor could they ever be, the same could be true of B-4, his purpose could've been to just demo the physical model - see if the form could walk and talk, nothing more. If there's no potential or potential for potential, what are you left with?
Whereas with Data and the Doctor they overcame built in limitations, namely ethical subroutines - for example Data in The Most Toys and the Doctor in Critical Care overcome this pre-programmed sense (or limitation) of right and wrong. Personally I think displaying their free will was a clear sign of sentience making them people.

I'm not saying I think I'm right or anything but I just find it interesting, where do we define what constitutes a person in sci-fi?

Isn't "differently abled" a more accessible term? I mean it has far less negative connotations.

Christopher · September 9 2012, 09:37 PM

NrobbieC wrote:

Equally the theory B-4 could evolve like Data was unfounded, Picard just assumed it.

No, he gave him the chance to try. As you would with any sentient being. Neither Picard nor anyone else has the right to say that B-4 isn't entitled to exist just because he's below the normal level of intelligence. That kind of discrimination is anathema to everything the Federation stands for.

Also it's very different when it comes to people.

Why? That just sounds like more discrimination -- that those who are different from yourself don't deserve the same rights.

B-4 is a member of the same "species" as Data. If B-4 isn't a person, then neither is Data. And if Data is a person, then so is B-4. And why should B-4 have less right to exist only because he's less intelligent? Everyone is less intelligent than Data. Did he have the right to kill Picard or Riker in order to preserve his own, more intelligent mind?

I think a good equivalent is those labour holograms from Flesh and Blood, they had no potential to be more than interactive humanoid-shaped tools. They weren't people nor could they ever be, the same could be true of B-4, his purpose could've been to just demo the physical model - see if the form could walk and talk, nothing more.

You can't prove that, and I don't think it fits the evidence. And frankly if there's any doubt about the question, the ethical thing is to assume that he is sentient unless proven otherwise. If you assume he's sentient and he isn't, then no harm is done. But if you assume he isn't sentient and he actually is, then you're guilty of violating a sentient being's rights and possibly even of murder. The choice is obvious, or should be.

Isn't "differently abled" a more accessible term? I mean it has far less negative connotations.

But it's pretentious and awkward and smacks of "PC." "Abled" isn't even a word.

NrobbieC · September 9 2012, 09:50 PM

You do raise good points, I'm just throwing the what if out there.

There's more intelligent and then there's B-4 who seemed to be about as advanced as a chat bot. Free will vs programming.
I wonder, how can you test for sentience when something cannot prove it's sentient? (I ask out of curiosity not pre-judging something to not be sentient)

Yeah it is haha. I didn't know that, then what is the opposite of disabled?

Relayer1 · September 9 2012, 09:50 PM

Christopher wrote:

Isn't "differently abled" a more accessible term? I mean it has far less negative connotations.

But it's pretentious and awkward and smacks of "PC." "Abled" isn't even a word.

Indeed. And disliking political correctness DOESN'T mean you're a bigot or an jerk...

RoJoHen · September 9 2012, 09:56 PM

The whole theme of Data's character arc has always been his quest to become more human. He sacrificed himself to save the lives of his friends. Bringing his consciousness back in another body or in some incorporeal computer mainframe just seems to reinforce the fact that he is not human, and somehow I feel like that would cheapen everything he has been through during his life. Keeping him dead is the most human thing you can do for him.

Christopher · September 9 2012, 10:22 PM

^Indeed, that was kind of the thematic point of Data's sacrifice in Nemesis -- that the ultimate step in becoming more human was accepting his mortality. Unfortunately, the scene that laid the thematic groundwork for that, where Picard and Data talked about transitions and mortality after the wedding reception, was cut from the film.

Newspaper Taxi · September 9 2012, 10:44 PM

That was my favorite scene in Nemesis.

Christopher · September 9 2012, 10:48 PM

Newspaper Taxi wrote:

That was my favorite scene in Nemesis.

Except it wasn't actually in Nemesis. Which is one of the film's biggest flaws. If they'd left in that Picard-Data conversation and cut out the totally gratuitous dune-buggy chase, it would've been a considerably stronger film. (And I'm saying that as someone who likes the film.)

NrobbieC · September 9 2012, 10:49 PM

Christopher wrote:

Newspaper Taxi wrote:

That was my favorite scene in Nemesis.

Except it wasn't actually in Nemesis. Which is one of the film's biggest flaws. If they'd left in that Picard-Data conversation and cut out the totally gratuitous dune-buggy chase, it would've been a considerably stronger film. (And I'm saying that as someone who likes the film.)

That and the Commander Madden and seat belts

Christopher · September 9 2012, 10:51 PM

^Oh, gods, no, the Madden scene was atrocious and stupid.

NrobbieC · September 9 2012, 10:58 PM

Christopher wrote:

^Oh, gods, no, the Madden scene was atrocious and stupid.

I thought it had its charm. Plus I did like the idea of ending the film on "where no one has gone before."

BillJ · September 9 2012, 11:40 PM

Christopher wrote:

^Oh, gods, no, the Madden scene was atrocious and stupid.

It should have been left in just to keep the Trek authors from going with Worf as the rather uninspired choice for first officer.

Sci · September 10 2012, 12:13 AM

BillJ wrote:

Christopher wrote:

^Oh, gods, no, the Madden scene was atrocious and stupid.

It should have been left in just to keep the Trek authors from going with Worf as the rather uninspired choice for first officer.

You'd have to cut the scene where it's Worf who calls Picard to the bridge weeks after the battle, indicating he's still serving aboard the Enterprise. And it's a better vehicle for the character of Worf to have him as first officer than a lesser post.

Christopher · September 10 2012, 01:41 AM

And how is Madden not an even more uninspired choice? Just another Anglo-Saxon human male, with no specific personality of any kind? Worf, by contrast, has many years of backstory from two different series, plus a recent history as an ambassador, which is unusual in a Starfleet first officer. So there's a ton of story potential to build on, and a fair amount of novelty in the choice.

NrobbieC · September 10 2012, 01:48 AM

Madden would be a blank slate for novelists to work with but yeah there's probably all he'd have going for him.

I'd have preferred Worf to have gone back to being an ambassador having just been filling in for Daniels or someone. But given what happened in Change of Heart him being in a command position does give him potential.

September 9 2012, 09:07 PM	#76
NrobbieC Commander Location: Burton, UK	Re: I want Data back... Equally the theory B-4 could evolve like Data was unfounded, Picard just assumed it. I suppose you could, but it's a little more extreme. Also it's very different when it comes to people. I think a good equivalent is those labour holograms from Flesh and Blood, they had no potential to be more than interactive humanoid-shaped tools. They weren't people nor could they ever be, the same could be true of B-4, his purpose could've been to just demo the physical model - see if the form could walk and talk, nothing more. If there's no potential or potential for potential, what are you left with? Whereas with Data and the Doctor they overcame built in limitations, namely ethical subroutines - for example Data in The Most Toys and the Doctor in Critical Care overcome this pre-programmed sense (or limitation) of right and wrong. Personally I think displaying their free will was a clear sign of sentience making them people. I'm not saying I think I'm right or anything but I just find it interesting, where do we define what constitutes a person in sci-fi? Isn't "differently abled" a more accessible term? I mean it has far less negative connotations.

September 9 2012, 09:50 PM	#78
NrobbieC Commander Location: Burton, UK	Re: I want Data back... You do raise good points, I'm just throwing the what if out there. There's more intelligent and then there's B-4 who seemed to be about as advanced as a chat bot. Free will vs programming. I wonder, how can you test for sentience when something cannot prove it's sentient? (I ask out of curiosity not pre-judging something to not be sentient) Yeah it is haha. I didn't know that, then what is the opposite of disabled?

September 9 2012, 09:56 PM	#80
RoJoHen Awesome Location: Wherever life takes me	Re: I want Data back... The whole theme of Data's character arc has always been his quest to become more human. He sacrificed himself to save the lives of his friends. Bringing his consciousness back in another body or in some incorporeal computer mainframe just seems to reinforce the fact that he is not human, and somehow I feel like that would cheapen everything he has been through during his life. Keeping him dead is the most human thing you can do for him. __________________ I am the Quintessential Admiral. Get ready to grow your EQUINOX BEARD!

September 9 2012, 10:22 PM	#81
Christopher Writer	Re: I want Data back... ^Indeed, that was kind of the thematic point of Data's sacrifice in Nemesis -- that the ultimate step in becoming more human was accepting his mortality. Unfortunately, the scene that laid the thematic groundwork for that, where Picard and Data talked about transitions and mortality after the wedding reception, was cut from the film. __________________ Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Includes purchasing links for Only Superhuman, on sale now! Updated 12/30/12 with annotations for the novel. Written Worlds -- My blog

September 9 2012, 10:44 PM	#82
Newspaper Taxi Captain Location: The Midwest	Re: I want Data back... That was my favorite scene in Nemesis. __________________ "Circular logic will only make you dizzy, Doctor!" -- Peri

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September 9 2012, 10:51 PM	#85
Christopher Writer	Re: I want Data back... ^Oh, gods, no, the Madden scene was atrocious and stupid. __________________ Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Includes purchasing links for Only Superhuman, on sale now! Updated 12/30/12 with annotations for the novel. Written Worlds -- My blog

September 10 2012, 01:41 AM	#89
Christopher Writer	Re: I want Data back... And how is Madden not an even more uninspired choice? Just another Anglo-Saxon human male, with no specific personality of any kind? Worf, by contrast, has many years of backstory from two different series, plus a recent history as an ambassador, which is unusual in a Starfleet first officer. So there's a ton of story potential to build on, and a fair amount of novelty in the choice. __________________ Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Includes purchasing links for Only Superhuman, on sale now! Updated 12/30/12 with annotations for the novel. Written Worlds -- My blog

September 10 2012, 01:48 AM	#90
NrobbieC Commander Location: Burton, UK	Re: I want Data back... Madden would be a blank slate for novelists to work with but yeah there's probably all he'd have going for him. I'd have preferred Worf to have gone back to being an ambassador having just been filling in for Daniels or someone. But given what happened in Change of Heart him being in a command position does give him potential.