VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!) - Page 18

Square · September 8 2012, 02:02 AM

Jedi_Master wrote:

Two points that I have made seem to have stirred up an admittedly small hornets nest.

First that writing Janeway into a story is a better idea than writing in a new character.

Second that having myriads of secondary characters that have small back stories can be tiresome to some readers, and those secondary characters do not drive sales.

Seeing as this is a review thread I will try to make this post relevant.

First -- Janeway is deep, interesting character. There are still a LOT of stories that can be told about her. For Gorn's sake, they still write stories about SPOCK! And the stories are still awesome. Janeway is not my favorite character, but seeing as I can picture her in my mind, hear her speak, and there are hundreds of previous stories for an author to pull character cues from I would rather read about her than a newly created secondary character.

Second. Obviously I "speak for myself" that I buy books to keep up with the main characters introduced by the TV shows and movies. I find it very, very hard to believe that the majority of those who purchase Treklit would by a book that had not one canonical character. The most successful Treklit books are ones that feature and thoroughly integrate canonical characters. That is why they are called "tie - ins".
There have been some awesome secondary characters created by various Trek authors... but c'mon folks, we like the canon characters. We eagerly anticipate reading about their adventures. We get excited when an author "nails" the way a canon character acts and thinks and speaks.

That's why Janeway gets the cover, and Cambridge gets some pages.

I agree.

If VOY had one big problem, IMHO, the characters were never fleshed-out as much as they could've been.

Beyer has already showed a remarkable ability to "fix" what was broken about the show, and I'm hoping she'll be able to greatly expand on Janeway's character.

P.S. Sorry for double-post.

Violet.Phoenix · September 8 2012, 05:55 AM

Just finished reading this book yesterday and now have the opportunity to leave a review. Apologies for the wall of text below.

Firstly, I love this book. Absolutely love it. The reasons for this go beyond the return of Janeway, and I shall explain.

I was very pleased to see not just one, but several Q appear in this novel, with each of their distinct personalities shining through. Junior's maturity as a Q was a great thing to see, and his sacrifice, though saddening, is something that I feel represents how far he has come.

However, I will agree with others that Amanda Rogers' death did seem rather abrupt and lacking some sort of 'weight' to it. It was sad to see her go, but I feel like it was for a reason, I just wish that there was a more defined reason to it.

I felt that Q and Lady Q were written brilliantly. I absolutely love Q's line "You have made an enemy of me today, Kathryn Janeway" after Junior sacrifices himself. The absolute rage that I felt from Q in that line was chilling. I really liked at the end, how Q has this sort of raw anger while Lady Q is quieter. The loss of their son undoubtedly caused a dramatic change in them, and I thought that Ms. Beyer conveyed this extremely well.

In terms of Eden's storyline: I thought that it was done well. To me, it felt like the journey to discover and understand her origins brought her full circle, concluding with her return to Omega in order to prevent the destruction of the multiverse. I can see how others may see it as an abrupt end for her, but I disagree. I feel that this end is fitting for her, to find out who she is and embrace that.

I want to move away from Eden's origin a bit to address something else that I really loved about the novel: the planet where Eden, the Doctor and Cambridge find a portion of the "anamoly" in a construct far beneath the surface. I really love how this was played out, from the intriguing drawings to the use of the Golden Ratio, Fibonacci Sequence and Spiral; I really enjoyed that. The imagery of the Doctor and Cambridge walking down the corridor filled with the illuminated star maps was quite lovely.

Janeway's return, I thought, was excellent. The route chosen by Ms. Beyer was unique and well thought-out. I had never considered the inclusion of Kes in her return, and this made it a thoroughly enjoyable surprise for me. I found that the moment where Janeway and Kes embrace to be a particularly powerful moment in the novel.

Her return to Voyager caused reactions in the crew that I anticipated, all of which were powerful moments, particularly Chakotay's. His apparent death was quite heartbreaking, and I know that I got a little choked up while reading both that scene and the first time Janeway says "I love you" to Chakotay. I'm extremely pleased, however, that both he and Janeway are able to continue their relationship in the end. I really love the emotional weight all these scenes carry, and I feel like this is something that Ms. Beyer does extremely well.

The Omega Continuum and its relation to things was interesting, in both a scientific and philosophical sense. It presented the universe with a force of great potential. It was really interesting to read about some of the relations it had to our own existence and how it affected that as well as the space around the fleet and the people that interacted with it. In terms of philosophical ideas, what really stood out to me about this was that this force was the imagining of what could be out there, and how our universe could possibly end. There are an infinite number of possible ways that this could occur, and I think that looking at any one of them is a great thing to do, especially in a science fiction novel. It truly fascinated me.

One last thing, I love the sense of hope that I got from this novel. Even with the shocking loss of half (

) the fleet, there are still signs of hope: Janeway's return, B'Elanna's pregnancy and the settlement of Riley's people on a planet that was once home to the Borg. Though there are consequences to their actions, the people in these novels continue to strive forward. It would seem that there are rays of light between the shadows.

The references to canon and the events in the novels throughout this one were a great sight, many of them brought smiles to my face or a grin at a clever connection. Truly wonderful.

In short, Ms. Beyer you have written what I think is an outstanding novel, and I shall return for the next one and any other Voyager novels that you may write in the future.

Markonian · September 8 2012, 11:32 AM

Speaking of children and other liberated Borg: Mezoti and the Borg twins may not have joined the Caeliar gestalt as well. The Wysanti homeworld would be worth paying a visit for this reason.

Jedi_Master · September 8 2012, 04:58 PM

I thought the concept of the Omega Continuum was brilliant. If the universe is expanding at a continual rate when will it stop? Will it ever stop? Those are big questions that science cannot answer, and whatever happens will likely be trillions of our years in the future, anyway.

So the development of a fictional concept of a "natural" force designed to "reset" the universe was awesome.

JanBull · September 8 2012, 07:01 PM

Violet.Phoenix wrote:

I love how you guys are referring to her as "you know who" now. She's gained as much notoriety as Voldemort!

Thrawn wrote:

Either way, I AM SO EXCITED. KIRSTEN MOTHERFUCKING BEYER IS BACK AGAIN.

I'm right with ya on that one.

I am SO, SO excited for this book and I will be venturing out to my local bookstore on the 28th to acquire a copy.

Absolutely TOO funny!!!

Violet.Phoenix · September 8 2012, 09:41 PM

Markonian wrote:

Speaking of children and other liberated Borg: Mezoti and the Borg twins may not have joined the Caeliar gestalt as well. The Wysanti homeworld would be worth paying a visit for this reason.

That's an interesting idea. This is what I really like about Voyager's journey back through the Delta Quadrant with the fleet. With the Borg (presumably) gone, the Quadrant has changed, and though the species that we saw during the show's run are still there, so many of the dynamics have changed, and I feel like that gives Voyager many new things to explore.

I'd really like for Voyager reach Ocampa and see what Kes has done for her people, as well as encounter Kes again. I'm really curious to know how she was able to ward off the Kazon in the area, especially the Kazon Ogla that were residing on the surface of Ocampa in "Caretaker".

Jedi_Master wrote:

I thought the concept of the Omega Continuum was brilliant. If the universe is expanding at a continual rate when will it stop? Will it ever stop? Those are big questions that science cannot answer, and whatever happens will likely be trillions of our years in the future, anyway.

It is fascinating, isn't it? I took a class once where we talked about this exact same topic, and whether or not our universe was expanding, contracting, or had the right balance of matter/dark matter to remain in equilibrium. Turns out that we are in an expanding universe. Though, what I really find fascinating is that our universe (to our current knowledge) is infinite; it has no finite boundaries that we have perceived. We can only see so far out into the universe, but there is more beyond that. I wonder if there is an end to the universe, but if there is, then what is beyond that? Is there anything beyond that? Can there be anything beyond that?

Markonian · September 9 2012, 12:36 AM

Violet.Phoenix wrote:

This is what I really like about Voyager's journey back through the Delta Quadrant with the fleet. With the Borg (presumably) gone, the Quadrant has changed, and though the species that we saw during the show's run are still there, so many of the dynamics have changed, and I feel like that gives Voyager many new things to explore.

Indeed. I could think of a dozen locations and peoples worth for a revisit, either for strategic reasons or out of curiosity. Places of Exile has shown us it is possible to set up a Federation in the Delta Quadrant among friendly people. The Talaxians seem to be perfect Federation allies (once their planet is retaken, that is).

How are the post-Phage Vidiians? Have the Vaadwaur engaged the Devore to reclaim their world(s)? The fallout of Gegen's theories among the Voth? Seska's child, the 37's, etc.

The Delta Quadrant offers so many story opportunities - and I haven't even mentioned completely unexplored regions (as seen in CotS). When's gonna be the next Voyager novel?

craig keith · September 9 2012, 02:29 AM

Markonian wrote:

Violet.Phoenix wrote:

This is what I really like about Voyager's journey back through the Delta Quadrant with the fleet. With the Borg (presumably) gone, the Quadrant has changed, and though the species that we saw during the show's run are still there, so many of the dynamics have changed, and I feel like that gives Voyager many new things to explore.

Indeed. I could think of a dozen locations and peoples worth for a revisit, either for strategic reasons or out of curiosity. Places of Exile has shown us it is possible to set up a Federation in the Delta Quadrant among friendly people. The Talaxians seem to be perfect Federation allies (once their planet is retaken, that is).

How are the post-Phage Vidiians? Have the Vaadwaur engaged the Devore to reclaim their world(s)? The fallout of Gegen's theories among the Voth? Seska's child, the 37's, etc.

The Delta Quadrant offers so many story opportunities - and I haven't even mentioned completely unexplored regions (as seen in CotS). When's gonna be the next Voyager novel?

As long as they dont encounter the kazons though!! they were just crap

Violet.Phoenix · September 9 2012, 04:03 AM

Markonian wrote:

How are the post-Phage Vidiians? Have the Vaadwaur engaged the Devore to reclaim their world(s)? The fallout of Gegen's theories among the Voth? Seska's child, the 37's, etc.

You have made me think of a good half-dozen Voyager stories that could be told from all of those. And I know that I would love to see the Vaadwaur or the Devore again.

And what about the Krenim Imperium? We saw at the end of "Year of Hell" that Annorax was again working on the simulations for time manipulation. Imagine what kind of novel that could create!

craig keith wrote:

As long as they dont encounter the kazons though!! they were just crap

If they run into the Kazon, Janeway should be armed with a pair of over-sized scissors in order to chop off those hideous hairdos of theirs.

Christopher · September 9 2012, 04:15 AM

Violet.Phoenix wrote:

And what about the Krenim Imperium? We saw at the end of "Year of Hell" that Annorax was again working on the simulations for time manipulation. Imagine what kind of novel that could create!

But he walked away from those calculations to spend more time with his family. Some interpret that to mean this is how history was changed to prevent the timeship from ever existing -- that Annorax decided to walk away and never finished inventing it. So that's the end of the story, not the beginning of another one. (And really, what kind of novel could it create if he'd just reiterated what he did the first time around? We've already seen that story.)

Violet.Phoenix · September 9 2012, 04:19 AM

Christopher wrote:

Violet.Phoenix wrote:

And what about the Krenim Imperium? We saw at the end of "Year of Hell" that Annorax was again working on the simulations for time manipulation. Imagine what kind of novel that could create!

But he walked away from those calculations to spend more time with his family. Some interpret that to mean this is how history was changed to prevent the timeship from ever existing -- that Annorax decided to walk away and never finished inventing it. So that's the end of the story, not the beginning of another one. (And really, what kind of novel could it create if he'd just reiterated what he did the first time around? We've already seen that story.)

Very true. I was just offering it as some speculation for a possible story, but as you said, it sounds like that door has been closed.

Drago-Kazov · September 9 2012, 11:31 AM

Just one quick spoiler question.

Is Janeway alive?

Judith Sisko · September 9 2012, 03:35 PM

VDCNI wrote:

Manisphere wrote:

So I'll just ask, how is it? Is it as good as Children of the Storm? Cause that blew my mind.

Personally I didn't think it was as good but a lot of that is the due to the sheer amount of loose ends it was tying up. As well as the Janeway issue there are massive shifts in the status quo of the series to the point where it could go in many different directions after this. It's still a very good book but it's not as focused as Storm and feels a bit too busy at times.

This sums up most of my thoughts as well. I just finished reading the book last night (which says a lot right there since I had pre-ordered it on my nook and began reading it the day it downloaded.) I really only started to get into the book when Dasht, Bal Itak, Varkas, and Chen went to check out the anomaly. (I hope we haven't seen the last of them. Anything is possible.)

Looking back, I think one reason it took me so long to get engaged in the story was because right when I'd start to get involved in a story line, the book jumped to a different story line and I'd have to realign my thoughts.

I think another reason was because I have difficulty reading Q stories when there is more than one Q involved. Since the book started out with Q, and Q, and Q...

But, in the end, I teared up when Junior and his parents parted.

I had no opinion one way of the other on bringing back Janeway. If she was going to do it, I had faith in Kirsten's ability to do it in a meaningful way, and she delivered. However, I'm glad Janeway's return wasn't the main focus of the book. I think we're going to have some interesting Janeway-Cambridge scenes in the future.

I rated the book Above Average. I think Kirsten has a wonderful grasp of the Voyager characters and has added some intriguing, multi-faceted new characters since she took over.

I can't wait to read her next installment.

I wonder, with Vanguard gone, could that possibly give another spot to Voyager in the publishing schedule? I'd love to see Christopher's take on the Delta Quadrant now. His "Places of Exile" was my favorite Myriad Universes story.

Markonian · September 9 2012, 07:06 PM

Judith Sisko wrote:

I wonder, with Vanguard gone, could that possibly give another spot to Voyager in the publishing schedule? I'd love to see Christopher's take on the Delta Quadrant now. His "Places of Exile" was my favorite Myriad Universes story.

Wonderful idea! Christopher is excellent at world-building, sense of wonder and characters, Imho. Plus, he strives to make the fictional concepts as scientifically accurate as possible and weaving it into the plot. This is not meant to say that Kirsten isn't excellent, but it could increase the outpot to more than one novel a year.

Isn't it awesome to have two novel series delving into the unknown and being on the exploration course again (thinking of Titan and Voyager)? It balances quiet nicely with the politically oriented series. DS9, with its access to the Gamma Quadrant, could be the middle ground between the two parts of TrekLit.

Ronald Held · September 9 2012, 08:40 PM

I just finished, and have some comments in no weighted order?
Logically 3 ships will not affect significantly what is transpiring in the Alpha and Beta quadrants, and might be more useful where they are.
I may be in the vast minority, but having a lover or partner where one is superior to the other in the chain of command is a bad idea.
I wonder if this story will be used as in the comics industry to reset or change certain historical details that could not ordinarily be done easily.

View Poll Results: Rate The Eternal Tide.
Outstanding	77	49.04%
Above Average	46	29.30%
Average	27	17.20%
Below Average	2	1.27%
Poor	5	3.18%
Voters: 157. You may not vote on this poll

September 8 2012, 05:55 AM	#257
Violet.Phoenix Commander Location: A distant corner of the Zeta Quadrant...	Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!) Just finished reading this book yesterday and now have the opportunity to leave a review. Apologies for the wall of text below. Firstly, I love this book. Absolutely love it. The reasons for this go beyond the return of Janeway, and I shall explain. I was very pleased to see not just one, but several Q appear in this novel, with each of their distinct personalities shining through. Junior's maturity as a Q was a great thing to see, and his sacrifice, though saddening, is something that I feel represents how far he has come. However, I will agree with others that Amanda Rogers' death did seem rather abrupt and lacking some sort of 'weight' to it. It was sad to see her go, but I feel like it was for a reason, I just wish that there was a more defined reason to it. I felt that Q and Lady Q were written brilliantly. I absolutely love Q's line "You have made an enemy of me today, Kathryn Janeway" after Junior sacrifices himself. The absolute rage that I felt from Q in that line was chilling. I really liked at the end, how Q has this sort of raw anger while Lady Q is quieter. The loss of their son undoubtedly caused a dramatic change in them, and I thought that Ms. Beyer conveyed this extremely well. In terms of Eden's storyline: I thought that it was done well. To me, it felt like the journey to discover and understand her origins brought her full circle, concluding with her return to Omega in order to prevent the destruction of the multiverse. I can see how others may see it as an abrupt end for her, but I disagree. I feel that this end is fitting for her, to find out who she is and embrace that. I want to move away from Eden's origin a bit to address something else that I really loved about the novel: the planet where Eden, the Doctor and Cambridge find a portion of the "anamoly" in a construct far beneath the surface. I really love how this was played out, from the intriguing drawings to the use of the Golden Ratio, Fibonacci Sequence and Spiral; I really enjoyed that. The imagery of the Doctor and Cambridge walking down the corridor filled with the illuminated star maps was quite lovely. Janeway's return, I thought, was excellent. The route chosen by Ms. Beyer was unique and well thought-out. I had never considered the inclusion of Kes in her return, and this made it a thoroughly enjoyable surprise for me. I found that the moment where Janeway and Kes embrace to be a particularly powerful moment in the novel. Her return to Voyager caused reactions in the crew that I anticipated, all of which were powerful moments, particularly Chakotay's. His apparent death was quite heartbreaking, and I know that I got a little choked up while reading both that scene and the first time Janeway says "I love you" to Chakotay. I'm extremely pleased, however, that both he and Janeway are able to continue their relationship in the end. I really love the emotional weight all these scenes carry, and I feel like this is something that Ms. Beyer does extremely well. The Omega Continuum and its relation to things was interesting, in both a scientific and philosophical sense. It presented the universe with a force of great potential. It was really interesting to read about some of the relations it had to our own existence and how it affected that as well as the space around the fleet and the people that interacted with it. In terms of philosophical ideas, what really stood out to me about this was that this force was the imagining of what could be out there, and how our universe could possibly end. There are an infinite number of possible ways that this could occur, and I think that looking at any one of them is a great thing to do, especially in a science fiction novel. It truly fascinated me. One last thing, I love the sense of hope that I got from this novel. Even with the shocking loss of half () the fleet, there are still signs of hope: Janeway's return, B'Elanna's pregnancy and the settlement of Riley's people on a planet that was once home to the Borg. Though there are consequences to their actions, the people in these novels continue to strive forward. It would seem that there are rays of light between the shadows. The references to canon and the events in the novels throughout this one were a great sight, many of them brought smiles to my face or a grin at a clever connection. Truly wonderful. In short, Ms. Beyer you have written what I think is an outstanding novel, and I shall return for the next one and any other Voyager novels that you may write in the future. __________________ "It's never easy, but if we turn our backs on our principles we stop being human." - Kathryn Janeway, "Equinox Part 1".

September 8 2012, 11:32 AM	#258
Markonian Commander Location: Cork, Ireland	Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!) Speaking of children and other liberated Borg: Mezoti and the Borg twins may not have joined the Caeliar gestalt as well. The Wysanti homeworld would be worth paying a visit for this reason.

September 8 2012, 04:58 PM	#259
Jedi_Master Lieutenant Commander Location: Florida	Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!) I thought the concept of the Omega Continuum was brilliant. If the universe is expanding at a continual rate when will it stop? Will it ever stop? Those are big questions that science cannot answer, and whatever happens will likely be trillions of our years in the future, anyway. So the development of a fictional concept of a "natural" force designed to "reset" the universe was awesome.

September 9 2012, 11:31 AM	#267
Drago-Kazov Fleet Captain	Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!) Just one quick spoiler question. Is Janeway alive?

STAR TREK

CSI

ABOUT US

September 9 2012, 08:40 PM	#270
Ronald Held Rear Admiral Location: On the USS Sovereign	Re: VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread (Spoilers!) I just finished, and have some comments in no weighted order? Logically 3 ships will not affect significantly what is transpiring in the Alpha and Beta quadrants, and might be more useful where they are. I may be in the vast minority, but having a lover or partner where one is superior to the other in the chain of command is a bad idea. I wonder if this story will be used as in the comics industry to reset or change certain historical details that could not ordinarily be done easily.